If abortion were banned on the state or national level, would "pro-lifers" support...

My response was actually directed a anti-abortionists because there's no foundation for defining abortion as murder.

 

Maybe it is since that poster could not name the "tools" used in abortion.

I guess then they'll want a law forbidding women to own coat hangers, wires of every kind, sharp instruments, .......

 

Only in the abortion debate would an issue as hotly contested as abortion be declared "not debateable".

Listen to yourselves.

 

The creators of the videos are not investigative journalists, they are a bogus front for a radical pro-life group.

What crimes, not a single crime has been committed on any of those videos.

Why because you say so, burn everything on the allegations of a group who edited videos to suit their agenda and failed ot shoe a single crime being committed.

some investigations have also been concluded and found that PP have done nothing illegal.

Really, care to share the investigation into that where it shows they weren't?

and of course you have ample evidence to support that accusation .. post it please.

Really, so you read about money changing hands for fetal tissue .. can you point that part out please because I have watched all the videos and there is not a single instance of money exchanging hands for fetal tissue.

 

There are already laws against several crimes that could be committed with those objects.

Explain how one more would be any different.

 

It wouldn't. It was YOU who brought up the "tools " of abortion! YOU explain....

 

Some one else pointed out Germany's policy on abortion and it had to be pointed out to them that Germany has a far better comprehensive sex education program that is a government duty by law which means teenagers are more aware of contraception and better informed than their American counterparts. The teenage pregnancy rate in Germany is three times less than the US which leads to a far lower abortion rate (especially for teenagers).

Access to birth control services and abortion services are better in Germany, for one it does not suffer from the level of pro-life protest seen in the US, there are places in the US that have NO abortion services what so ever, that does not occur in Germany.

Legislation banning abortion has NEVER been shown to work, it does nothing to reduce abortions all it does is push it into the hands of criminals, and even the German laws are pretty much toothless, as soon as an exception for mental health or well being is included those restrictions become moot.

When the time comes that the majority of pro-lifers support the proven things that actually do reduce abortions, then and only then would legislation be on the table as far as I am concerned.

 

I was picturing doctors running illegal clinics when I made that initial statement. I felt like that was so obvious, it would not need articulation. Then again, this is the abortion debate and we were all born yesterday.

 

No, they are white knight super heroes exposing the radical and evil murderous super-villains known as Planned Parenthood.

Yes there have been crimes committed on those videos. Conspiracy to traffic in human body parts is one of many.

You must live in an alternate universe. This is the only logical explanation for you complete disconnect.

Wrong. No investigations of Planned Parenthood sparked by these videos has been concluded.

Do you want a Google search of the most recent teacher student child molestation cases or do you think you can do it yourself?

Teacher molesting student

Good for you. Did I say money changed hands?

 

.
Our government, a secular government, does not exist to enforce or even to acknowledge what is right or wrong according to some segment of believers. Laws are supposed to be passed with one goal only, and that is to maintain order in society.

Our government is not capable of judging what is morally wrong or right, it is capable of determining what causes disorder in society. Our law-makers may veer off-course and pass laws to enforce what they believe to be right or wrong, but, BUT they will never be able to enforce those laws. That is because people will have different morals, and they do not believe government has a right to interfere with them, they believe, for the most part, that government is forbidden to interfere with freedom of conscience unless it is for the betterment of the whole of society. So government does not have the authority to pass laws forbidding abortion for the simple reason that it is "wrong."

 

nope, they are a bogus radical group with a fixed agenda as can easily be seen by their edited videos, there used to another one like them .. Liar Rose, oh sorry that is Lila Rose.

Really, then please point out the exact transcript where that offence takes place.

no I live in the real universe unlike the one populated by bogus radical pro-lifers who see what they want in order to confirm their bias.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/07/31/indiana-clears-planned-parenthood-of-wrongdoing/204705

Extract - "On July 30, Indiana officially cleared Planned Parenthood clinics in the state of wrongdoing, finding "no evidence of any laws being broken" in the handling of fetal tissue, according to an Associated Press report. Pointing to letters from the Indiana Department of Health to the clinics investigated which stated that the agency was "unable to find any non-compliance with state regulations" the report noted that "the complaint is closed"

"Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey conducted a review of Planned Parenthood at the request of a Republican lawmaker, and last week announced that her office found no evidence that the Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts is operating a fetal tissue donation program."

"Officials in GOP-dominated Florida reportedly completed their investigation of the clinics; the inspections were conducted on July 29-31 ... The agency did not find any evidence that fetal tissue was being sold illegally in Florida."

Add to this that there are calls for investigations into PP clinics who do not even participate in tissue donation programs, including Louisiana, Kansas, and Georgia and it is plain to see that this is nothing but a witch hunt.

by your logic they should be closed, just like all religions should be banned, after all didn't some of their members commit crimes and that is exactly what you are advocating for PP that due to a few of their employees allegedly committing crimes the whole organization should be shut down .. they haven't even been arrested, tried or convicted for ANYTHING yet, so much for innocent until proven guilty.

no I did, I asked a very specific question "please point out where in any of those videos human parts are being sold for profit?", you replied you had read about it, yet you could not have read about it because the videos and transcripts depict no human parts being sold for profit.

 

An incubator is an incubator and a woman is a woman.

For better understanding:
Incubator
Woman

I think the difference is rather obvious.

Mind control is mind control and counceling is counceling. The purpose of mind control is to prevent a person from developing independent, responsible thinking, whereas the purpose of pregnancy counceling is to provide information which enables to independent, responsible thinking.

Whether a fetus has a "right to live" in the sense of natural law is rather a philosophical question and - even though the question might be addressed during a counceling session - not the decisive point in the terms of the law. "Right to live", in the context of this law is a judicial term and de jure, a fetus has the right to live in Germany. That is what the Constitutional Court here decided in 1975. I am very aware that this is a decision which is different from the decisions that supreme courts in many other countries have decided and that in these countries, the fetus doesn't have a "right to live". Those countries have different rights and a different constitution. Therefore, the statement given in the law is not a lie but simply a description of the legal positivist reality.

Intimidation is actually not used. § 5 SchKG states:

(1) The counselling required under section 219
of the Criminal Code shall be conducted so as
to leave the decision open. It shall be conducted
on the premise that responsibility lies with
the pregnant woman. Counselling is intended
to be encouraging and understanding, not
reproving or patronising. Pregnancy conflict
counselling shall serve to protect unborn life.
(2) Counselling shall comprise:
1. Entering into conflict counselling; it is
expected for this purpose that the pregnant
woman informs the counsellor of her
reasons for considering an abortion; the
counselling situation rules out the pregnant
woman being forced to discuss her situation
and to cooperate with the counsellor;
2. Depending on the case in question, any necessary
medical, social and legal information,
an explanation of the legal entitlements
available to both mother and child and of
the available forms of practical assistance,
particularly those which aid the continuation
of the pregnancy and ease the situation
for mother and child;
3. An offer to help the pregnant woman in
advancing her claims, in finding accommodation,
in making childcare arrangements
and in continuing her education or training,
as well as the provision of follow-up support.
If the pregnant woman so wishes, she
shall also be informed about ways to avoid
unwanted pregnancies.​

It can be and has been argued that the woman is coerced in order to participate in the counceling, though.

Because abortion is already banned.

Because abortion is not murder.

This is not possible, because the death penalty has been banned in Germany.

In contrast to many other countries in which murder is necessarily punished with imprisonment for life or even the death penalty, "Murder under mitigating circumstances" (§ 213 StGB) is penalized by imprisonment only from one year to ten years. Conducting an abortion, prior to the counceling regulation, was punishable with imprisonment not exceeding three years, so there has always been a difference between murder and abortion.

The maximum penalty for a crime here is 25 years. In German legal theory, it is the prevailing opinion that there shall be no revenge in the sense of the victims' (or even society's) gratification. The sole purpose of punishment is (1) deterrence, (2) protection of society from further crimes and (3) re-integration. In summary: all punishment serves the sole purpose of the protection of legal goods (i.e. life, liberty, property). This is also the reason for initiatives to make jails more comfortable: The purpose of laws is not - and not at all - to have revenge on the perpetrator but only and exclusively to protect the potential victims.

The question, why abortion is not (again) penalized by imprisonment at all is actually a better question than you might think, since the Supreme Court ruling here explicitly says that criminalization of abortion is an obligatory option in the case that abortion can not significantly be reduced by other means. Whether the results of the new legislation are acceptable has so far never been re-evaluated, though.

Yes, this is part of the counceling, see subsection two.

There is no punishment for a woman who had sex, except in the case of incest. This legislation and its confirmation by the Constitutional Court is highly controversal among law scholars, though.

 

Almost didn't make it past your Incubator is an incubator and blah blah.....but did make it far enough to know Germany is quite barbaric in it's treatment of women....

 

Those are sham investigations if they took less than 5 days.

And there is lots of evidence that the videos have produced that show the human parts are being sold for profit. It's just plain ignorance to claim their not because that is exactly why these videos are so controversial.

 

I'd like to add that NO section describes the physical effects of pregnancy and child birth for women....VERY dishonest.


And once again, if abortion isn't murder why is it banned? To PUNISH women for having sex....

 

That was a police officer. He had a suspicion. NO, no one goes to prison on say so alone, there has to be evidence. Or I'd tell the police that my neighbor(the one with the barking dog) killed someone and they'd throw him in jail with no evidence and no body, no nothing.....that doesn't happen

 

Denial in the face of evidence that proves your assertion wrong, typically really. .what about the investigations being called for in states where NONE of the PP clinics are even involved in tissue donation programs?

no there is not, experts on the subject have already stated that the amounts being discussed in no way would create a profit for PP .. but of course you will dismiss them as you have nothing to dispute what they say.

 

I just thought that I would dismiss you points like you do whenever I produce evidence that you want.

Just like I knew you would in this post:

You asked me for evidence, I provided evidence then you mock it. The evidence was from scientists testifying before congress.

 

Amusing that among all you complain about dishonesty, but nevertheless, I will make another attempt to eventually start a discussion.

The physical risks of pregnancy are a part of the pregnancy consulting under subsection (2): "any necessary medical, social and legal information". There is a consensus that medical risks of pregnancy are a necessary medical information.

This is an example of a pregnancy council concept. It states:

Frauenspezifische Beratung im Zusammenhang mit Schwangerschaft anerkennt die persönlichen
Konflikte der Frau und stellt diese in Beziehung zu ihrem Lebensentwurf und zu ihrer derzeitigen
Lebenssituation. Sie hat auch die zunehmend medizinisch geprägte Auffassung vom Schwangerschaftsprozeß
im Blick. Dieser betont sehr stark die Risiken einer Schwangerschaft und betrachtet
sie als neun Monate, in denen die schwangere Frau und insbesondere das zu erwartenden Kind
ständiger medizinischer Überwachung und Kontrolle bedürfen.​

Translation:

Woman-specific council in the context of pregnancy acknowledges the personal conflicts of a woman and puts them into a relation to her planning and to her current situation in life. It increasingly focuses also on the medically connotated perception of pregnancy, which emphasizes very strongly the risks of the pregnancy and views it as nine months, in which the pregnant woman and especially the expected child require constant medical surveillance and control.​

Because not all actions which kill human life are murder. A soldier killing another soldier doesn't commit a murder, either. "Killing" and "murder" are two very different things in German legal terminology.