Protesters cover UVA’s Thomas Jefferson statue in black shroud

I'm in full agreement with you, Antiduopolist.

As I mentioned earlier, I think Jefferson is the most overrated of all the Founding Fathers. There were much finer writers, such as he "Penman of the Revolution", John Dickinson, whose Letters from a Farmer in Pennsylvania denouncing the Townshend Acts of 1767 remains one of the greatest intellectual achievements in American History - if you ever get a chance to read them, do it. In addition to Dickinson, there were far greater intellects than Jefferson. During the early years of the Republic when the Federalists and Democratic-Republicans were debating the important issues of the day, Jefferson found himself completely unable to compete with Alexander Hamilton and had to get James Madison to do his arguing for him - something that grew increasingly annoying and tiresome for Madison. Worst of all, was what you mentioned - Jefferson was keenly aware of his own personal moral failings and hypocrisy. Furthermore, he had been branded a coward when he abandoned Richmond to British General Benedict Arnold when attacked and burned the city in 1781 (he was later cleared of the charge).

However, it would be unfair and dishonest to overlook TJ's good qualities and his many contributions to our Commonwealth and our country and judge him solely on his shortcomings. He wrote the Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom, which is one of the greatest of the Founding Documents, and his arguments were later incorporated into the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment. As president, he made some significant achievements, most notably the Louisiana Purchase, and later he accomplished what he considered his greatest feat - the founding of the University of Virginia. The irony of watching a bunch of spoiled rich kids crap on the founder of the school they are attending is beyond words.

Without question, many of the Founders and Framers, most notably Jefferson, were flawed men, but I think it is both absurd and appalling that the nihilists amongst us would attempt to negate them from History because they were imperfect. As American Nationalist noted 'He without sin should cast the first stone' and as Rich pointed out, most if not all of the imperfect creatures who are calling for obliterating Jefferson from our collective memory aren't worthy of wiping Jefferson's ass.

I'm glad we're starting to see some pushback on this, even though I don't support many of the groups that are doing the pushing. This PC foolishness has to end. History isn't for snowflakes, and that's precisely why we shouldn't let a bunch of moral and intellectual simpletons attack, revise and negate our History.

 

statue gets covered with a blanket.

Conservatives and Regressives go nuts.

who are the snowflakes now?

 

That's not America culture, that's white trash southern "Kulture"

 

They dint have a right to refuse...

 

You makeva good point point Boychyk!

 

"reduplicating" --- I thought that Inwas the only one on thus forum with the fight go coin words? What is reduplicating ? Is that line quadplucating ?

 

The point about Jefferson is that even by the standards of his OWN time - and most certainly of his own considerable intellect - what he was doing was deeply wrong.

 

Sally Hemmings was legally emancipated while she was in France. She was under no obligation to return to the USA with Jefferson. Yet she did anyway.

 

She was not his property in France where slavery was legally abolished. She was under no obligation to return to the USA with him.

 

People leave their families all the time. If Jefferson were serially raping her, as you and others claim, then the choice to remain in France would have been an easy one. She would have eventually become a resident and citizen of France, too, which would have allowed her to return to the USA without fear of being enslaved.

 

She was fourteen when she went to France and sixteen when she returned to the USA. This was a normal age of consent during that time. Even some modern countries like Germany and Italy still have fourteen as their age of consent.

 

Already explained...

 

Also explained.

 

You're not understanding her situation; maybe read back through the thread?

 

What's really ironic here is your belief that slaves had no volition or agency, since it reduces them to mere objects bereft of humanity and complexity.

In truth, Sally was legally emancipated the second she stepped on to French soil. She lived in France for two years attending to Jefferson's daughter, so she had learned the language and the customs by then. Nothing prevented her from remaining in France as a free woman. The idea that she could not stay in France because her family remained in the USA is flimsy at best, since young people leave their families all the time to go out in to the world. Why would Sally be any different?

I think what's more difficult for people to accept is that Hemmings and Jefferson had genuine feelings for one another. We're not allowed to say that because it's politically incorrect to suggest that a slave could fall in love with their master, but reality is not a Hollywood movie, I'm sorry to tell you. Sometimes slaves develop genuine feelings of love for their masters. This is just a historical fact easily verified by the accounts of slaves themselves.

 

Jefferson wasn't responsible for Americans expanding into the west. That was already happening long before he became the president. His stated policy was to try to promote peaceable relations with the indigenous people if at all possible. If you want to talk about genocide of the natives as official policy, then you need to fast forward to right after the civil war when the US military started eradicating them systematically.

 

You have no idea if that's true or not. You obviously want it to be true, but you cannot know for sure.

 

Except she wasn't a slave in France.

 

You're just not getting it; maybe read more about slavery and how it affected slaves and their families?

Good luck in deepening your understanding.

And it's Hemings.

 

His views were genocidal, his actions were those of a serial rapist.

But you do make some true comments, however irrelevant to the topic.

 

If Jefferson was a serial rapist, as some are claiming, I'd be the first to throw him into the trash heap of history, since rape was brazenly criminal and immoral even by the standards of Jefferson's time. The only problem is that there is literally no evidence supporting the claim that Jefferson was raping Sally Hemmings. There is nothing in the character of Jefferson to suggest this. In fact, by all accounts Jefferson was a kind and gentle man who remained implacably faithful to his wife until she died. And then there is the fact that Sally Hemmings was fully emancipated upon arriving in France. She knew this; Jefferson knew this; and yet she chose to return to the USA anyway, on condition that any children they had would be emancipated. Jefferson kept his promise to her. Some are obviously disturbed by the idea that Sally could have developed genuine feelings for Jefferson, but she was human just like anyone else, and Jefferson was a desirable man. It may not conform to the Hollywood stereotype of American slave owners as vicious sadists, but it is supported by historical evidence and human psychology. I suppose I am willing to concede the possibility that Hemmings was so passionately attached to her family members in Virginia that she was willing to be raped for the rest of her life just to be around them, but Jefferson's critics would also have to concede the possibility that Jefferson and Hemmings never actually had any romantic attachment whatsoever, since the genetic evidence is not definitive. At the end of the day, people are simply going to believe what they want to believe based on their own biases. For my own part, the totality of the evidence seems to suggest that Jefferson and Hemmings had genuine feelings for one another.

 

Posting a thread on an internet forum is going nuts?

 

Thomas Jefferson is not part of American culture? Interesting theory.

 

Some people remember the white mans's culture =

"Segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever!" ~ George C. Wallace