The Bible

I will never see the grandparents of my grandparents either. Did they exist at all?

Well, as much as the "Jews are really super-humans able to fool the world for almost two millennia, biblical scholars and scientists in different fields included" theory pleases my Jewish ego, my feet are still firmly on the dirty ground of old Terra. Such feat isn't possible, unless Jews are supernatural creatures. Are Jews supernatural creatures?

How does your theory explain St. Augustine's call for the death of all Jews?

Wait, what?

On one hand, you say the Bible, including the Jewish Tanakh, is a relatively recent invention from early Middle Ages. On the other hand, you claim it's historically accurate. Is everything in the Bible historically accurate, or do you have the right to pick and choose?

 

You are contradicting your own words - again. You brain is swirling in a sea of denial.

It matters not what I suppose - the topic is what Jesus said - and Jesus categorically states that works are required "Only those that do the will of the Father" get into heaven

Perhaps Jesus requires that one not reject God as well but, he states clearly that works are "The will of the Father" = only those that do works get through the pearly gates.

Asking silly questions and sticking your head deep in the sandbox of denial will not change the words of Jesus.

Jesus goes to great lengths to pummel this in to your head.

It is not the hearers of the teachings of Jesus that have a solid foundation - it is the one who hears and puts those words into practice.

Are you concerned that your foundation is weak ? Is this why you are so desperate to deny the teachings of the Jesus of Matt ?

 

The discussion is in relation to the Jesus of Matt - in particular the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7. How one gets through the pearly gates

 

Which is different to Christians, who accept the teaching because they are from Jesus. So? Jesus taught what he had been taught by his teachers. The fact is that today we know that what Jesus believed was simply not true. Jesus accepted the Torah, Adam, Abraham, Moses, the Exodus. Archaeology, ancient history proves this.

Which I don't have a problem with. The OT is not irrelevant! You can't have the NEW without the OLD! See above.
Christians believe what they have been taught. Others, like myself, have gone on to study further. What you have been taught, and are still being taught, is not true. You only have to look at the nativity stories to see that. Jesus in 2 places 200 miles apart at the same time, plus other problems with the 'prophecies' used. You've been taught that Jesus died at the age of 33 in 33 CE. Not according to the Bible. That would make Jesus 38 - if he was born in Herods the Greats reign (Biblical record). So many problems.

So they took cultural influences from former religions. So what? And as for Christianity taking influences from Judaism, JESUS WAS A JEW!
If you'd bothered to read my post they also took religious influences. See Yahweh - son of El. Yahweh who became Israel's god - in the New Testament.

Which would be pointless. Not to those who want the truth.

 

The Dead Sea scrolls were found starting 1947 onwards. We knew nothing about them till then. They're even earlier .
You've a fixation about the '1st' extant Bible. A book whose contents you ridicule. Odd, isn't it?

 

How does the fact that Jesus accepted these prove that what he believed was "simply not true?"

What about the nativity stories?

What evidence are you using to determine this?

What would make Jesus 38?

Again, what's the problem with taking cultural influences from former religions?

Of course there are going to be lots of stories of creation!

 

Considering that Jesus only talks about "the will of my Father" once in the sermon and only talks about heaven in relation to CERTAIN works, would you say then that not all good works is doing the will of the Father and are enough to get into heaven?

"PERHAPS?" The fact that you can't see how the Bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR that Jesus requires that one not reject God is UNBELIEVABLE for a man of your intelligence! Truly UNBELIEVABLE!

I agree.

When have I denied the teachings of the Jesus of Matt?

 

Almost everyone has a vested interest in supporting religious fairy tales even if they don't believe in them. For instance, religion is a huge industry that employs millions of people around the world. There are architects and construction workers who design churches, mosques, temples, synagogues. English architects design a lot of the muslim mosques.

All of the religions have a love-hate relationship with each other. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam feed off of each other. Per the Old Testament the Jews would be happy to kill off everyone else because it is their First Commandment. But they are too weak to do it so they have to use the Christians as their useful idiots. After all, the Christians worship a zombie Jew because they think it will get them into the golden cube called New Jerusalem. So you have evangelists like John Hagee yakking every Sunday about how wonderful Israel is because he has gotten wealthy off of spewing that BS. The muslims based their religion on the Jewish fairy tale and although they fight each other from time to time they spend most of their time collaborating against the Christians.

There are clothing manufacturers who design and make all kinds of religious garments. Why do you think Mormons have to wear magic underwear and muslims have to wear burkas and other things? It is a way for certain people to have a steady income.

Then there are the book publishers and tour operators. Mecca is just a theme park that has an eternal source of customers because muslims have to go there at least once in their lifetimes if they can. How would you like to have that franchise?

Then there are the politicians and others who take bribes to push their masters' agendas. That includes everything from littering the country with "holocaust" museums to giving Israel hundreds of $Billions of taxpayer money to oppress Palestinians while American citizens go hungry and have to crap in the streets. Then the European politicians take muslim bribes to allow muslim invaders into their countries because the US and Israel have caused so much death and destruction in some of the muslim countries.

Have you ever read the Bible? It says that all Jews will die (as well as everyone else). Read Zephaniah 1:2-3. It also says that you shouldn't believe any Jewish fairy tales = Titus 1:14. The Bible is nothing but Jewish fairy tales so why do you believe any of it?

When have I ever said that the Bible is historically accurate? A few of the stories mention real people but only a certified idiot would think that there was someone there recording their speeches word for word. Surely you are not one of those people, are you? Maybe you believe that garbage Joseph Smith wrote.

Religion is all about fear, money and power. Just about everyone in all cultures around the world throughout history have wanted to continue living after their physical death. Con men take advantage of that fear and put themselves in a position where they get to make the rules about how people can achieve eternal life in the happy hunting grounds, heaven, paradise, or Valhalla. In return the people have to give the con men money and tell them how special they are.
.

 

What was happening in 1947? The Dead Sea scrolls were proven to be hoaxes.

 

Jesus does not talk about "only certain works" - For example "Do unto others as you would have done to you"/Treat others as you would be treated covers a whole range of human activity.

Jesus is not an idiot - as you would make him out to be - he does not say "This is the Will of the Father" after every teaching as that would be stupid. I am sure Jesus realized that after giving an entire Sermon detailing the will of the Father - as that was the point of his ministry - and then summarizing with "only those that do the will of the Father" will get into heaven - people would understand and that those who didn't were too stupid and lost to be admitted.

The will of the Father is what Jesus says is the will of the Father. Do you have an example of a Good Work that you think is not covered ?

We are discussion the Jesus of Matt/Mark - Please quote where Jesus says that belief in God is required ?

You deny the teachings of Jesus when you claim that the Jesus of Matt does not say that works are required for salvation - and denying that Sola Fide is contradicted by a salvation formulation that requires works.


.

 

No, I was just seeing what you would say. I agree with you, but if you think that it is possible that works WITHOUT faith is the only way to salvation, don't you think that Jesus would've been more explicit about it?

Why are you restricting it to the Jesus of Matt/Mark?

There's no reason why it can't be a works formula that requires salvation. However, since you deny any other scripture other than the words of Jesus, you'll never understand.

 

I never once claimed that works without faith was the "only" way to salvation. As stated - perhaps faith is a requirement as well - he just never said this in the sermon on "how to get in to heaven" but this is not the point.

The point is that works is a requirement according to the Jesus of Matt - and this is explicit as can be.

The reason I do not think faith is a requirement is twofold... as you say if this was the case he should have mentioned - more explicitly than "Love God" as a part of good works. Certainly the Pharisees professed a love for God but, they didn't make it. The reason they didn't make it is because lack of following the teachings of Jesus.

Another strike against faith as a requirement is in Matt 25; those who do not know Jesus get in.

A third strike - is that the above makes sense logically - it seems silly to condemn someone to eternal damnation on the basis that they have never heard of Jesus or .. as discussed previously - babies. What makes sense logically is that one's deeds are what matter. Paul even says this - for certain in reference to the Jews but also he says that at the end of days the gentiles will be judged on the basis of conscience. .

There are some that argue that Paul was not as "Sola fide" as he is depicted that salvation through grace does not actually mean "faith alone" - but that is for another day.

The reason I am talking about the Jesus of Mark/Matt - is because this Jesus contradicts Sola Fide.

Perhaps the Jesus of John is the correct one. At the end of the day what we have is various authors "Perspective" on Jesus. Each is different. The Jesus of Mark is different than the Jesus of Matt ... same is true with Paul and the author of John.

The same is true with the OT - The God of the Elohist tradition is different than the Priestly tradition - the Yahwist tradition different from the deuteronomist tradition. (these were different sources in the OT all spliced together).

The OT has numerous different authors and there are different perspectives. The God of Abraham (El) is different from the God of Moses (YHWH) .. the perspective of the God of the authors of the NT is vastly different from YHWH - as discussed previously.

Which is correct ? No one knows. I know this is discomforting but - it is what it is.

The earliest canonical Christian writings come from Paul. Paul knows very little about the Historical Jesus - he never met the man - never heard him preach - and did not become a follower of Jesus until years after his death. We know nothing about the historical Jesus from the writings of Paul.

Mark is written around 70AD - 40 years after the death of Jesus. This is a long time. Matt and Luke are written a few decades later around 90AD . and both use Mark as a source document. Matt seems to retain the Judaic tradition while Luke is hardcore Pauline theology.

The Jesus of Mark is deified at his baptism - at the age of 30. There is no virgin birth and no lineage back to David.

In Mark there is no Physical resurrection (Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death). The story ends with an empty tomb - and the women do not tell a soul.

Paul does not have a physical resurrection either - Paul likens the appearances of Jesus after death to his vision. A spiritual resurrection.

60 years after the death of Jesus - Christianity is evolving - and with it the stories about Jesus - Christian dogma.

The author of Matt adds a virgin birth = Jesus is deified at birth - a lineage back to David (to fulfill the Jewish prophecy) and - "The smoking gun" - proof of the resurrection. Jesus is literally depicted walking around after death in the flesh.

By the time we get to the author of John - writing around 100AD - this is something. The author has a completely different writing style, far more polished, and a different perspective. The gospel of John is a Hellenist Pauline fusion work.

The first thing to mention is that author of both John and Luke really have a dislike for the Jews. This is not surprising given the history of the day - Jews were pariahs that no one wanted to be associated with.

The author of John is trying to make Christianity more appealing to the Greek speaking Pauline audience - who were mostly Greeks. He uses terminology they are familiar with. Jesus is depicted as the "LOGOS" (mistranslated as "word" in the NT).

Logos can mean "word" but, in a religious context it meant the emissary between God and humans. Jesus was "The Logos" - who spoke Gods word directly through the holy spirit.

To the author of Paul Jesus was not deified at baptism nor virgin birth - Jesus was preincarnate - with God from the beginning - although subordinate to The Father.

Jesus does not become fully God until some 200 years later at the council at Nicea.

 

I have five words for you:
correlation does not imply causation.

 

Great post......

 

to be fair, Jesus never wrote the NT, it was written by men many many years after he was said to have died - they would of left that out as they wanted people to believe their newly created religion, if you did not have to believe to be saved from God's evil wrath, then why believe.... why not just be good and do good works

they wanted people to believe God was a jealous God that punished non-believers

 

and of course nothing proves this more then the bible's accounts of Jesus last words which are different, so not all 3 can be correct

Jesus' last words

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

 

You really are having a laugh. Nor are you reading my posts.

Jesus taught what he had been taught from the Tanakh, by his teachers. The fact that this teaching was wrong, as per archaeology, ancient history, throws some doubt on the source of his teachings - the Tanakh.. His reference to Abraham, Moses, etc are references to non-existent past people. Many Jews today accept the fact that these are simply allegories and over 50% of Jews worldwide no longer practise their religion (Figure from Jewish sources)

Judaism, considered Abraham to have been their father through Isaac. Islam believes Abraham to have been their father through Ishmael. But if neither existed? Where does that leave Christianity? As you said before the New Testament doesn't exist without the Old Testament. Most of the gospels refer back to various OT Patriarchs, as do many of the Epistles. Hebrews positively relies on them. But archaeology and ancient history show the Biblical story as false.

Abraham could not have bought land from the Hittites. They appear in history and archeaology centuries after Abraham had died around 2000 BCE (Biblical geneaology and generally accepted dates). Moses could not have called Ur 'of the Chaldees' as they appear 1200 years after Abrahams death, and 4-500 years after Moses death. If Moses existed he should not have made the mistake abiout the Hittites. They fairly regularly visited Pharaoh's Palace delivering 'letters' and items between the two rulers. This we know by letters and treaties in various museums found in the ruins of the Hittite capital in Turkey, and in Egypt..

So the NT depends on the OT. And the OT is questionable.

Nativity stories. Matthew puts Joseph and family in Egypt sometime shortly after Jesus birth - to escape Herod. They stay there until Herod dies and Archelaus takes over. This is not automatic. It has to be done by Rome and it takes time. The Kingdom has to be divided and Herods sons installed - and that also takes time. That means Matthew put Joseph in Egypt for some time. Luke, however, has Joseph back in Nazareth after Mary;'s 'ritual' purification. That is 40 days. And, according to Luke, they stay there while Jesus grows up.

Jesus 38.

Jesus born around 5BCE - during Herod the Greats reign. Herod dies 4BCE. Jesus starts ministry at 30. That's 5-0 BCE = 5 years. 0 CE to 25 CE = 25 years. add the 2 together and we get 30 years of age - in 25CE. 3 years ministry brings us to 28CE - and Jesus 33 years of age when crucified. Now if we are taught he was crucified 33CE - then he was 38 years old.

I REPEAT. I didn't say cultural influences - I said RELIGIOUS influences.

 

No they weren't. You've been reading the Museum of the Bible. There certainly are recent fakes out there and they have purchased some of them. They have also had to removed other doubtful items they have purchased, some through dubious means. I've yet to see any authoritative denouncement of the original scrolls.

 

Hey Margot - good to see you - have not seen you in awhile

 

You have to be a member of one of the twelve tribes of Israel because only 12,000 from each tribe can pass through their specified gate. If you are not a member then you won't get in unless they are accepting Gentile slaves to keep the golden cube clean.

Matthew 19:28, Revelation 7:4-8, Isaiah 14:1-2, Matthew 15:24, Deuteronomy 23:1-3.

Do you want to be a slave for eternity in the golden cube?

 

If they admit that they are all fakes that would put some big nails in the coffin lid wouldn't it? Do you think they want to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

Why would a rational, intelligent, educated person in the 21st Century believe that a creature such as a celestial deity of any kind would real itself to a bunch of ignorant goat herders in the ancient Middle East? The Egyptians and Nubians were a lot smarter.

There is over 200 Billion galaxies in the observable universe. If each galaxy occupied one cubic foot of space the observable universe would be the size of a sphere about 7 miles in diameter. Now take the one cubic foot of space that our galaxy is in and then find the speck that is our planet. Then zoom down to find the piece of dirt that is the Levant area. Are we to think that a real celestial deity would only concern himself with the people on that piece of dirt while ignoring everything else in the 7 mile diameter sphere? Remember, this is the creature who will spend eternity with his "chosen people who are the apple of his eye" in a 1,500 mile sided golden cube called "New Jerusalem".

 

Do you believe that you are 100% archaeologically correct? Do you believe that there are no alternatives from people like Christian archaeologists? I'm sure that you have heard the other side refute your belief. Even just on the Hittites, do you not realise that there is an argument that Biblical Hitties are not the same people as the Hitties which came later?

JUST Joseph?

If we are taught that he was crucified in 33CE then don't we also have to say that he was born in 0BCE?
If we INSTEAD say that he was born around 5BCE then don't we ALSO have to say that he was crucified in 38CE?

What's the problem with taking RELIGIOUS influences from former religions?

What evidence are you using to determine this?

 

Some might claim that it is better to be a slave in the golden cube than a free soul in HADES !!!!!!!!!

 

Wow, how do you know so much about them?

 

Leaving the obvious contradiction aside - and the extremely problematic fact that while Luke uses Mark as a source document - he somehow manages to "omit" and/or change the last words of Jesus - as does John - the "My God My God why has thou forsaken me" Jesus of Matt/Mark pretty much nails the modern Trinity doctrine into the coffin where it belongs.

If Jesus is in fact God - as the Trinity doctrine states - it was God hanging there on that cross.

This brings up all kinds of mind bending questions. What is God doing calling out to himself ? In the throws of some kind of masochistic delirium did God forget who he was ? ...

.... or perhaps God has a God !! Yeah - that's it.

Leaving those troubling questions aside which just on their own should nail the coffin shut - (never mind the gazillion other times Jesus refers to God as someone other than himself) - what is this forsaken business.

How did God forsake Jesus ? Did God make a deal with Jesus and then wiggle out of that deal ? Did Jesus expect God to come rescue him at the last moment ?

This scene is somewhat reminiscent of God forsaking his servant Job. Job says the same thing - why have you done this to me !

The difference of course being that Job was not God (obviously Jesus was not God either). Of all people - Jesus should know the answer to his question should he not ? How could God not know why God has forsaken him ?

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.