Delusions in a Godless Universe

Agreed .. and even if there is a God - this does not mean there is an afterlife.

My belief is that existence is eternal. The proof for this is as follows.

At some point - matter and energy got together in some configuration that gained knowledge of itself. We know this happened - How ? - we exist. I think therefor I am.

Some often argue that their had to be a creator involved due to the extremely low probability of this happening "randomly". The problem with this argument is that there is no such thing as "random" if there are forces in the universe that are guiding things.

For example - "Entropy" is the force of nature that pushes things from order to disorder - if you fart in the corner of the room the natural tendency is for the gas particles to spread out - not to group together in another corner. We see the opposite of this in biological systems however - and in other areas. Books have been written on this topic - "Chaos Theory" - showing how complex systems arise in a sea of apparent randomness.

Regardless - however it happened - it happened. There was then a "finite probability" that this event would happen.

There was a finite probability that matter and energy could come together such that one day you would open your eyes and say to yourself "I'm Here". How do you know this ? Your here !

Assumption - "Time is Infinite". In an infinite amount of time - all events having a finite probability happen. In fact that event happen an infinite number of times.

Existence is infinite.

 

de·lu·sion
/dəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun

1. an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.

Thr 'rational argument' here is the ASSUMPTION of a godless universe.
IF.. this is assumed, THEN.. any belief contrary is a delusion.

You can define it however you want. This is how i am using it. It is far from 'arbitrary!', as you falsely accuse.

 

So it's rational that everyone would believe that assumption to be correct in such a universe?

If that assumption is not backed up by evidence, then why is it rational?

By the way "typically a symptom of a mental disorder" would mean that yes, we do need to bring the definition of delusion from psychiatry and psychology into this.

 

This is just a belief.. with no evidence that this is even possible, much less that it did, actually, happen.

And it changes nothing, in the OP, as to the implications and conclusions.

Even if you assert, 'The universe is God!', there is no Creator, or Moral imperative, heaven, hell, or purpose. You have just redefined a 'godless universe!', as God. So, if you mean an intelligent, powerful Creator, then this is no longer a godless universe. And, if you mean impersonal, insentient 'energy!', or 'metaphysical plasma!', then it is equivalent to 'godless', and the same conclusions are drawn about delusions.

 

Only if this were, in fact, a godless universe. In a God ordered universe, the list would be plausible possibilities, not delusions. A belief in 'godlessness!' would then become the delusion.

The implications and logical conclusions of the assumption is the subject, here, not proving the assumption.

 

No, if you are going to use that definition of delusion, then you are implicitly agreeing that the scientific/medical definitions of delusion also apply. Under those definitions, simply having incorrect or non-factual beliefs is not a delusion.

 

Of course it happened. That is the only thing in this world that we know for certain.

You are made of matter and energy - somehow - these things came together in a certain configuration known as usfan. One day usfan opened his eyes and realized he existed - as did Giftedone and everyone else on this forum.

It matters now whether your all powerful God - or Natures God - made this happen - or it happened via the rules of the universe - "It Happened"

Denial of this fact is denial of your own existence ... if anything is delusional - that would be it.

 

I'm sticking with a dictionary usage. You can redefine it however you wish.

de·lu·sion
/dəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun
an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by rational argument

The assumption: godless universe
The contradicted beliefs: delusions

I'm not going to wrangle anymore about definitions. I provided a clear definition, even though everyone knew what i meant. I see the obsession over definitions as deflections and argumentation, not rational, topical debate.

 

Except now you are selectively editing the dictionary definition arbitrarily because you don't like that it includes aspects of psychology/psychiatry. This shows how intellectually bankrupt your entire argument is.

Simply having an incorrect or non-factual belief is not a delusion.

 

You are moving the goal posts. You previously asserted,

..which is completely different than accepting our existence.

 

I did not move the goal post. If you accept that you exist - then you accept that at some point matter and energy (the stuff you are made of) gained knowledge of itself = existence. That is what existence is.

You are made of matter and energy .. you know you exist. This means that the configuration of matter and energy that is YOU - became aware of its own existence.

We can debate how this happened - what is not debatable is that it happened. To deny that matter and energy in a particular configuration gained knowledge of itself - gained knowledge of its own existence - is to deny your own existence.

 

I think religions that have a god accept the existence of god as a fundamental assumption - not as being derived from some other set of root assumptions.

It's directly derivable from the assumption that there is a god that all else is delusion.

 

And you figure that how, exactly?

Such an opinion would be understandable given an appreciation of humanity that's comparable with that of a stereotypical slack-jawed redneck for the Brandenburg Concertos. Why you would voice such an opinion is, I suppose, a matter for speculation.

Because God's existence is tied to the importance of everything, obviously.

 

?
So an assumption of, 'godless universe!' is some kind of 'Christian!' argument? Implications and reasoning from an assumed premise is a 'Christian trick!' to fool you into believing in God?

Only 'Christians!' believe in delusion?

Your reasoning is very obscure. Would you like to clarify?

Here is the premise, for this thread:

"We exist in a godless universe."

What are the implications and conclusions for this premise?

Yes, 'Christians are stupid!', would be one. I softened it by saying 'Belief in God is a delusion.', which it would have to be, IF we were in a godless universe. I also list other delusions that are rational conclusions of assuming the premise.

 

An obvious conclusion about humanity, in this godless universe we have constructed for philosophical reasons, is the propensity for 'delusion' among the human animal.

A great majority of humans are deluded. All the believers in God are greatly mistaken.. deluded, in fact, for believing in some metaphysicsl fantasy.

But even many atheists share this propensity for delusion. They believe their lives have some 'meaning!' beyond survival, or in some moral code. They claim a strong 'sense' of 'right and wrong!', when that is a human fantasy.. a delusion to manipulate people.

Why is this? Why are humans so prone to delusion, if we exist in a godless universe?

I see no natural explanations, for this trait. Animals are often deceptive, to acheive some survival edge, but self deception seems contrary to this edge.

Why are we so delusional, in this godless universe?

 

Really? That is easy to answer.

People need to believe in something greater than themselves, in order to be happy. They need to believe the world and their lives make sense and have a purpose.

When you let all of that go, you do like I did. You ditch all the crap and spend all of your time with hot young women.

 

Ok.. that fits with delusional theists, but what about atheists who believe in delusions, like 'meaning!' and 'morality!'?

Why would believing in a delusion make you happy?

What is 'happy' about believing in a powerful Moral Being, who will punish your sins in hell for eternity?

..that explanation does not seem to be a 'one size fits all', solution..

 

You added this, so i didn't get it in my first reply.

Don't plenty of deluded theists 'spend time' with hot young women? I've been 45 yrs, with a hot young woman, and spent every free moment with her.

Are you implying that the instinct for reproduction is the only meaningful thing in this life? Everything else is a delusion? That would be a logical conclusion, in a godless universe..

 

Same answer as above. It is our desire to find meaning that drives us to survive. When we lose all hope, we lose the will to live. Belief in meaning gives us hope.

Clearly religion is about control. But as for faith, you are ignoring heaven. It is the promise that no matter how much life sucks, when you die it will all be better and you will exist in bliss for eternity.

 

The love of beauty. I'm talking about beauties in their prime - their 20s and early 30s. The love of beauty is certainly an evolved trait. The definition of beauty does relate directly to reproductive viability. The characteristics of women who are most likely to make healthy babies, are the ones that appeal to our sense of beauty.

And you sound fairly delusional yourself. 45 years with the same woman does not make her young. But your need to be happy drives you to delusion.

 

But would not those who clearly see, and accept, the Reality of life, be better equipped and suited to survival? Unincumbered by human platitudes, they could exploit others to their advantage, and gain supremacy in the social setting.

 

In general, cooperation is a better strategy in a social setting than exploitation is.

 

You are right. In a godless universe, me staying with, finding attractive, and adoring what is still, to my eyes, an attractive woman, would be a delusion. I should dump her, and chase some younger, baby making skirts, if i were to follow my instincts.

Why is this not more common, among older men? Some old farts dump the old hag, but they don't usually hook up with 20 somethings, with a functional womb, to procreate. They usually hook up with another old hag, or a 40+ something with a withered womb. What is the point of that?

 

No natural explanations? Seriously?

How about a lack of perfect knowledge about the universe? Or are you claiming that in a godless universe every human would have perfect knowledge of the nature of the universe?

How about fear of the unknown? Fear of death?

There’s lots of natural explanations.

 

On what basis do you claim that there could be no meaning or morality in a godless universe?