Delusions in a Godless Universe

You could always try not being a Liar for Jesus and instead actually address my argument from my post instead of selectively quoting “aka deliberately lying about what I was saying”.

 

How can human beings, with such a propensity for delusion, be trusted to accurately convey and interpret the conclusions of a scientific test? What is there in scientific methodology that removes the human element?

 

Double down, if you wish. It will only lead to me ignoring you. I have no faith in the report function, and fair moderation. I have my reasoning, and ignoring hecklers and disrupters. That is all i can do, and still post here.

 

Multiple independent tests. Not all humans are psychologically the same. It is extremely unlikely that the human bias from one experiment would carryover to all other experiments conducted.

You asked this question like it was a “Gotcha”, but you realize that scientists and the scientific method are well aware of this potential problem and have come up with solutions for it, yes?

 

So why did you selectively quote my post rather than address my argument?

Let me repost it:

Your OP breaks down because you failed to follow through with your “assumptions”: even if we “assume a godless universe” unless you are also assuming that everyone in that universe would have perfect knowledge of its true nature, then no, being religious would not be a delusion. It would be incorrect, it would be counter-factual, but it wouldn’t be a delusion because people wouldn’t know if the universe was godless or not for a certainty.

Let’s see if you have the intellectual intregtrity to actually address that argument.

 

Hard evidence and reproducibility, basically the scientific method. Religion cherry-picks facts and mixes those with emotion and unsubstantiated claims galore. There is no comparison.

 

You do realize that even language and reasoning themselves are examples of cooperative behavior, yes? I don't understand your fascination with pretending that cooperation doesn't exist in nature, but then again, some people still believe the earth is flat. Some beliefs are simply immune to evidence.

 

No one every claimed that dysfunction doesn't exist. No one. It is irrelevant to the point because you missed the point entirely.

 

As has been covered, false beliefs aren't delusions. So, obviously, "can only be called" is false.

No. This does not necessarily follow.

No. This does not necessarily follow.

No. This does not necessarily follow.

No. This does not necessarily follow.

No. This does not necessarily follow.

No. This does not necessarily follow.

No. This does not necessarily follow.

You've provided no logical progression for the above.

 

Yes, of course it does.
Yes, of course it does.
Yes, of course it does.
Yes, of course it does.
Yes, of course it does.
Yes, of course it does.
Yes, of course it does.
You have not followed the reasoning.

Hey! I see why baldfaced assertions are used, instead of detailed reasoning!
So much easier!

 

Right.
Human beings, posing as infallible 'scientists!', never do that.

They are always purely empirical, and only report proven conclusions...

What planet do these superior beings come from?

No religious influence, in any scientific endeavor?

Too much!

 

You provided no reasoning. These are just bare premises without any logical progression offered. They are . . . how did you put it? . . . "baldfaced assertions . . . instead of detailed reasoning." I'm sure it is easier, but if you are going to make the argument, you should really provide a full line of reasoning, not just make statements of faith.

 

How about i have the Intellectual ability to see through your lame arguments?

 

False accusations.. disruption, ad hom.. so pathetic and lame.

This is the best you have? Intellectual, logical arguments?

 

So silly. No, scientists never pretend to be infallible. Quite the opposite, in fact. You don't seem to understand that science is based on facts, not on who says what. You could be a bible-thumper and still contribute to science if only you would adhere to scientific principles and contribute something meaningful. But bible-thumpers aren't educated to do that and aren't interested in doing that, because the facts just don't support their personal beliefs. Too bad.

 

NO! I didn't say that AT ALL! I said that religions that have a god usually have that god as a fundamental assumption, not as having been derived from some other set of fundamental assumptions.

I didn't say anything about any delusions.

Please note that I'm not even SLIGHTLY demeaning your religion here.

And, it's not at all clear from your OP that you had the above as a premise.

You made NO attempt to follow through on what would pertain in a godless universe - other than to denigrate the very idea.

 

More selective editing and not even an attempt to counter the argument.

Everyone, I present you the intellectual integrity of the supposed “rational theist”.

 

Is the best you have the weakass selective quoting you’ve been doing?

If you are the best theists have to offer, no wonder you guys get trounced on this sub-forum all the time.

 

The reports from those who can practice OOBE tell a different story. Their incorporeal appearance can be rather vague and formless when not conforming to the familiar earthly body pattern around which others often feel more comfortable. Newly deceased individuals who expect to "meet their maker" promptly run into disappointment and disillusionment. While most gravitate to a level of their preconceived belief practices and intellectual development, others who are not so strongly encumbered rise higher and eventually after enough positive gains from multiple lifetimes contemplate the portal to a different reality. None in this realm know anything about the reality beyond this one. There is no heaven/hell dichotomy in this reality, although there is a lower realm somewhat comparable to hell.

The supposed link between a Creator/God and otherworldly/supernatural realms is a limitation of yours but not necessarily everyone else's.

 

Atheists debate from a rational viewpoint, religions debate from a supernatural viewpoint requiring people to suspend logic

 

Over generalization.

Atheists are always logical, scientific, and emotionless.

'Christians!' are always superstitious, irrational, and hysterical.

Seriously?

 

It's a matter of what is seen as optimal, what is best practice, what is the objective in methods.

Scientific Method is designed with the assumption that humans ARE fallible - in fact, that they are frequently wrong. The result is a system that depends on multiple attempts at eliminating fallacious results by repeated and independent experimentation, by review, by knowledge that not even the greatest certainty in science (theory) has to offer is unassailable.

It is religion that has their correctness as a root assumption. The founding principle is that not only does god exist, but that he is the prime mover, the very reason for whatever is happening on earth!! From there we see a scaffolding that is unsupported by evidence - eternal life, hell, miracles, etc.

Again, the contributions of science come from people of all philosophies. But, the results that live came by careful exclusion of god as a factor in the science. In some cases it came from religious people who were willing to state heresy, because that's what their science indicated to be true. They were willing to accept that their own religion was fallible.

Pretty amazing! They were strong enough to accept that their own religion was fallible!

 

'To arms! To arms!' A mean Christian is attacking atheists!''

I gave a list of logical conclusions, extrapolations, and implications of a godless universe. Nobody has really addressed those, or made their own list, and defended it.

Here are some delusions, or 'wrong beliefs', or mistakes, or whatever you want to call them, in a godless universe:

1. There is a God
2. God Created everything and everyone
3. There is a soul
4. There is an absolute moral code
5. There is a heaven and hell
6. Love is a deeply spiritual experience
7. Life has purpose and meaning
8. God has ordained gifts and duties for man
9. 'Good' and 'bad' are Real and Absolute
10. God is good
11. God loves you
12. God created you for a purpose
13. God has embedded each soul with a conscience
14. The choices you make in life have eternal consequence
15. Angels and devils are real beings
16. There exists a spiritual dimension.

Do these not, 'pertain' to a godless universe?

..which pretty much describes everyone, even your infallible, purely logical 'scientists!'

This is a foible of humanity, and is not just a 'Christian!' thing, nor are atheists automatically excluded, just because they assert their opinions with assumed correctness.

 

This is not the debate here. Reread the OP.

We are ASSUMING the premise of, 'godless universe.' The list are delusions that would exists, IF we assume a godless universe.

Any arguments would necessarily be 'rational', not just religious assertions.

So, do you have any rational arguments, or just religious assertions? Are you suspending logic to make some snarky jab at 'Christians!'?

 

Regarding delusion:

IF.. this is a godless universe,
AND IF.. humans have a great propensity toward delusion
THEN.. the widespread delusions about the universe are logically explained.

Both among theists, who believe in,

'Flying spaghetti monsters!', 'Magic sky pixies!' 'Delusional Christians believe in fantasies, because they can't face the emptiness of their own existence!'

And among professing atheists who believe,

'I have a soul! I believe in a moral code! My life is meaningful and significant!'

..or other such human fantasies..

Why is human delusion so common? Is it just wishful thinking, as some have suggested?