Electric Cars

Yes, I recall that being used...Much like Santa Monica, and other liberal ghettos...

 

What's misleading about it? Do you deny that the ICE loses 75% of the available energy in gasoline to heat rather than propulsion? The electric motor doesn't produce much heat, which is why heating the cabin in the winter is a problem with electric cars, with extra heaters consuming quite a bit of the energy stored in the batteries.

 

What does "too expensive" even mean? And by "too expensive" do you mean artificial taxation that makes it so? I would simply remind you that efficiency doesn't correlate to usefulness. IE, even if the electric motor is 3x more efficient, if it doesn't last to support the jobs folks want them to perform, who cares? It becomes an exercise in capacity storage, and of course, none of that is actually efficient given the time it takes to recharge them, as well as their fragility and inability to endure large or heavy loads. So, the efficiency that you refer to is at best transient and unlikely to tip the scale for usability any time soon.

 

The coal industry will welcme it!

 

Perhaps you should just concentrate on trying to come to grips with the subject matter BEFORE making any further posts on the topic.

 

Because by itself, it implies that the overall efficiency of electric motors is better than ICE. It ignores the fact the some kind of heat source, such as a ICE must be used with the electric motor. You have to look at the whole chain. That might be worthwhile. Keep in mind that each stage along the way has an efficiency which results in energy loss. For the electric motor in an automobile with a battery for energy storage.

Some kind of device to drive an generator. ICE, steam turbines, hydro, whatever.
The generator itself.
A transformer to increase the voltage for transmission.
Transmission lines.
Transformer to step down the voltage.
More transmission lines.
Converter to transform the alternating current into direct current to charge the battery.
Charging the battery.
Discharging the battery into the electric motor.
The electric motor.

Lets assume that each of those has a 90% efficiency. By the time the electric motor actually moves the drive wheels, the overall efficiency is down to 35%.
I don't claim that 90% is the right number. Sometimes it is higher, sometimes it is lower, but there will be an efficiency for each of those steps.

 

1) I specifically noted in my above post that I disregarded other inefficiencies in the process.
2) Electricity can be generated by solar power, or wind power, no heat engines required.
3) Why don't you list all the inefficiencies in the ICE supply chain? Just modern US oil extraction, for example, has a EROI (energy return on energy invested) of roughly 5. That means that one gallon of oil input is needed to extract five gallons. That EROI value is dropping fast.



What are we going to do about it?

 

That does not eliminate the other efficiencies

You can do that for any source of power and it generally should be done before making a flat statement touting the efficiency of a single method. You talked about all the extraction costs for oil. You could do the same for electric power and include the cost of building dams or the cost of solar panels or wind turbines. It all comes into play, ultimately. My only point is that you have to be careful before you start claiming one has an advantage over the other.
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I posted numbers son. You can't get around the math.

Maybe someday you'll be able to afford an EV and see what I'm talking about.

 

So battery replacement will be FOC? New prices are out of reach of many so there will be a secondhand market. Older cars will eventually need replacement batteries.

 

You overlooked the fact that natural gas is 1/6 the cost to start with.

 

Stop by a super charger station and have a cup of coffee and a donut on your way to work.

 

I did not "overlook" anything. I was pointing out that you cannot just casually compare an electric motors efficiency to an internal combustion engine. You have to look at the whole system from power generation to the running gear on whatever vehicle you are talking about.

I am all in favor of wind and solar power and natural gas along with electrical vehicles. However, there are distinct advantages and disadvantages in all vehicles, electric or internal combustion engines. Too often, people on both sides try to sell you on one or the other while ignoring factors which may be important to some users and not so important to other users.

 

If you want to make the point that gasoline is a superior, more dense energy source than renewables, I'd fully agree with that. Because of this high quality energy property of gasoline, the ICE-powered car has many advantages.

There is only one tiny little problem: THE GASOLINE MADE FROM OIL IS NOT RENEWABLE.

Therefore, the discussion of pros and cons between the electric car and the ICE-powered car is really moot, because eventually we will be FORCED BY NATURE to adopt the electric car. The only question one can discuss is: How long will the ICE powered car still be viable?

 

You seemed to have missed about everything I just said. Where did I say an ICE was superior to electric? They each have their advantages. If and when gasoline is no longer available, there will likely be alternative ICE fuels. They are working on them now. At that point, the pendulum might shift towards electric vehicles or back towards ICE.

 

Which alternatives for gasoline are they working on?

Believe me, I've had this discussion before. It always comes down to (paraphrasing) "there will be alternatives when the time comes". Nobody can spell out these alternatives, but they have conviction that the free market will solve our energy problems. Nevermind that betting the entire future of humanity, for which energy is the number one resource, on "hope" seems to be a futile strategy. Kind of like believing in the tooth fairy.

 

They have been working on and using bio fuels for years. The US Air Force has tested and flown with bio fuel in jets. The fuel was made out of a flowering weed called camelina. My wife has a distant nephew who is doing research on making bio fuel out of what is essentially pond scum. There is alcohol which has problems but some of those have been solved by burning some of the byproducts from sugar beets. They are trying to make bio fuels out of garbage.

 

Well you'd know that's not true, IF you'd have read the read the manufactures spec on the charging times..

Jez, Ron don't make it so obvious bro

 

What? Two donuts?

Tesla supercharging stations charge with up to 150 kW of power distributed between two cars with a maximum of 150 kW per car, depending on version. They take about 20 minutes to charge to 50%, 40 minutes to charge to 80%, and 75 minutes to 100% on the original 85 kWh Model S

 

And how many supercharging station are there across country, or from San Fran to L.A? In fact there are only 16 in the entire U.S? Damn Ron you insult peoples intelligence with these silly attempts

 

You are confused by the new models.


An expanse of covered solar parking shelters the 40 Superchargers on the lot. A private lounge invites Tesla travelers to rest in plush armchairs, plug in their mobile devices, and enjoy soothing music.

But one Supercharger location in California, located at the midpoint between Los Angeles and San Francisco, is, at least for now, the largest of them all.

 

It's Engineers that will figure it out.

I'm all for more hydro but until we get the environmentalist and regulations out of the way..................

Environmentalists oppose dam, seek to keep Indians in the dark
https://greenjihad.com/2017/09/19/environmentalists-oppose-dam-seek-to-keep-indians-in-the-dark/

ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS OPPOSE SWANTON DAM
http://countycourier.net/2016/07/environmental-groups-oppose-swanton-dam/

Environmentalist ‘Davids’ Oppose Goliath Dam Projects
https://lasvegassun.com/news/1997/feb/26/environmentalist-davids-oppose-goliath-dam-project/

And that is just the top the first page of the search

 

Donno, was a Google map.. But not every one on your map is actually a supercharger station, but I stand corrected, my apologies..

Here is a 2019 map. Granted they are making an effort!

 

There is one in the city in the next county where I live with only 8 stations. And they take at least 30 minutes. And I don't have time to be lounging around I got things to do and places to go.

 

If, for the sake of argument, you assume that ALL production costs of BOTH gas and electricity are EQUAL then an EV beats an ICE when it comes to EFFICIENCY by a huge margin.

That puts the ONUS back on those trying to use production costs to PROVE beyond any doubt whatsoever that electricity production costs are vastly MORE expensive than those of gas.

WITHOUT that evidence EV's are more efficient than ICE.