Is there a right to abortion, and if so, where does the right come from?

"Individual" meaning not part of another's body. As a pre-viable fetus cannot live outside the woman's body, it is not an individual.

 

I repeat: do you think it should be a criminal offense to lie to one's spouse? If not, then does that make you pro-lying?

It's tragic that a woman who could have a child has reason to think she shouldn't.

Its inability to live. Duh.

Because only an individual human being can have individual rights, not something that is inseparably part of another's body.

No, any more than a doctor can tell you the minute a dying patient becomes unviable and should be unplugged. What on earth relevance could that have?

 

<yawn> If the fetus is separate from the bloodstream of the woman carrying it, how does fetal alcohol syndrome happen, hmmmmmmmmmm?

Just like the pre-viable fetus. You just proved me right and yourself wrong.

Not a separate life.

Self-evidently false. By definition, a pre-viable fetus cannot be separated from the woman and live.

You didn't Google it, did you?

 

Nope. An "individual" is separate from others, and cannot be inseparably part of another individual's body.

 

Life begins at conception, but is not separate until viability.

To bring a non-viable fetus to viability.

I don't see it. Quote the relevant passage.

You definitely need to Google it, because it proves you wrong by reductio ad absurdum.

Every scientist and medical professional was aware of it.

 

It's not an individual until the federal government issues it a Social Security number.

 

It is obvious that it can't be a person if it doesn't have higher brain function. Anything beyond that is faith argument which has no place in the legal system.

Course that means trump isn't a person.

Let there be no doubt that the religious right wing wants to IMPOSE their entirely random beliefs on everyone else. They clearly seek to suppress personal liberties based on interpretations of biblical fairy tales.

Expand the SC and eliminate their [the fanatical rw] influence. The court is clearly corrupt, political, and worthless as nothing but a rw political tool. Every one of those righty judges lied on this issue in order to get appointed.
Support the right of secession

 

The separate unique an individual human being is created at life.

Look you have gotten so much biology wrong at this stage I would stop digging your hole.

A meaningless undefinable term of no biological or ethical interest. YOU were CREATED with your right to life.

You don't see the part about hold these truths to be self evident?

Then you should have no problem showing so, quote the relevant parts.

The medical ones are aware of what I have said. How much biology did you take where you were taught the mother and her unborn baby are one individual and share each others blood?

 

Non-sequitor it doesn't have to be for some to be pro or anti it.

This isn't about a woman who "could" have a child it's about a woman who already has a child and what she intends to do allow it to have it's life or kill it. THAT is the tragedy.

It is LIVING and will continue to LIVE unless the mother or nature kills it.

The baby in the womb is a separate individual the premise of your argument is entirely false.

Unviable because their brain is dead and no hope for a recovery.........a baby in the womb is alive and well and it's brain is functioning just as it is supposed to at that stage in it's life and no reason to believe that the child will not continue to flourish. It's specious comparison on it's face.

 

The same way nutrients and oxygen can pass from the mothers blood through the uterian walls and into the choronic vili of the umblillical cord the feed and nurish the baby. That is whe why pregnant shouldn't smoke either or take a variety of other drugs.

Now biology school is closed I suggest you stay away from such arguments.

A unique never exist before life with it's very own genome and body chemistry which must be kept separate of the mothers else it is likely to die.

And unless the mother or nature kills it will continue on it's life.

 

For your reading pleasure


Is the Unborn Part of the Mother's Body?

...It is a well-established fact that a genetically distinct human being is brought into existence at conception. Once fertilization takes place, the zygote is its own entity, genetically distinct from both mother and father. The newly conceived individual possesses all the necessary information for a self-directed development and will proceed to grow in the usual human fashion, given time and nourishment. It is simply untrue that the unborn child is merely “part of the mother’s body.” In addition to being genetically distinct from the time of conception, the unborn possesses separate circulatory, nervous, and endocrine systems. [2]

A Chinese zygote implanted in a Swedish woman will always be Chinese, not Swedish, because his identity is based on his genetic code, not that of the body in which he resides. In fact, if the woman’s body is the only one involved in a pregnancy, then she must have two noses, four legs, two sets of fingerprints, two brains, two circulatory systems, and two skeletal systems. Half the time she must also have testicles and a penis.

The previous statement may sound shocking. But in those fifty percent of pregnancies when the child is male, clearly his sexual organs are not part of his mother’s body, but his own. It is a clear scientific fact that the mother is one distinctive and self-contained person, and the child is another.

The child may die and the mother live, or the mother may die and the child live, proving they are two separate individuals. The child-guest is a temporary resident of the mother-host. He will leave on his own as long as he is not prematurely evicted. There are many cases where a mother has been fatally injured, after which a doctor has delivered her child safely. The mother’s body dies, the baby lives. Unmistakably, the baby was not merely a part of his mother’s body, or he would have died with her. Children have been born several months after their mother has been declared “brain dead.”[3] Obviously they must be two distinct individuals prior to the child’s birth, or one could not die while the other goes on living.

The unborn child takes an active role in his own development, controlling the course of the pregnancy and the time of birth. New Zealand professor A. W. Liley is known as the “father of fetology.” Among his many pioneer achievements was the first intrauterine blood transfusion. Dr. Liley has stated:

Physiologically, we must accept that the conceptus is, in a very large measure, in charge of the pregnancy.... Biologically, at no stage can we subscribe to the view that the fetus is a mere appendage of the mother.... It is the embryo who stops his mother’s periods and makes her womb habitable by developing a placenta and a protective capsule of fluid for himself. He regulates his own amniotic fluid volume and although women speak of their waters breaking or their membranes rupturing, these structures belong to the fetus. And finally, it is the fetus, not the mother, who decides when labor should be initiated.[4]...
https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Mar/29/unborn-part-mothers-body/

And from the textbooks

The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed. Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 199, 2-18:

"[The Zygote] results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual."

From Human Embryology & Teratology, Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996), 5-55:

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments... The zygote ... is a unicellular embryo.."
Essentials of Human Embryology, William J. Larsen, (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 199, 1-17:

"In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct ... resulting in the formation of a zygote containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point... This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."

Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw Hill, 196, 43:

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."
Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2:
(updated, still the same)

"Human begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." "A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo)."

T.W. Sadler, Langman's Medical Embryology, 10th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2006. p. 11:


"[The zygote], formed by the union of an oocyte and a sperm, is the beginning of a new human being."

J.P. Greenhill and E.A. Friedman Biological Principles and Modern Practice of Obstetrics (Philadelphia: W.B. Sanders, 1974), 17:

"The zygote thus formed represents the beginning of a new life."

Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola Miller, Human Embryology and Teratology, 3rd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 2001. p. 8:

"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization... is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."

William J. Larsen, Essentials of Human Embryology. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1998. pp. 1, 14:


"Every time a sperm cell and ovum unite a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition."

Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974:

"In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun."

Lennart Nilsson A Child is Born: Completely Revised Edition (Dell Publishing Co.: New York) 1986:

"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."

Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3:

"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."

Turner, J.S., and Helms, D.B., Lifespan Developmental, 2nd ed., CBS College Publishing (Holt, Rhinehart, Winston), 1983, page 53:

"A zygote (a single fertilized egg cell) represents the onset of pregnancy and the genesis of new life."

Clark, J. ed., The Nervous System: Circuits of Communication in the Human Body, Torstar Books Inc., Toronto, 1985, page 99:

"Each human begins life as a combination of two cells, a female ovum and a much smaller male sperm. This tiny unit, no bigger than a period on this page, contains all the information needed to enable it to grow into the complex ...structure of the human body. The mother has only to provide nutrition and protection."

Scarr, S., Weinberg, R.A., and Levine A., Understanding Development, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., 1986. page 86:

"The development of a new human being begins when a male's sperm pierces the cell membrane of a female's ovum, or egg....The villi become the placenta, which will nourish the developing infant for the next eight and a half months."

Thibodeau, G.A., and Anthony, C.P., Structure and Function of the Body, 8th edition, St. Louis: Times Mirror/Mosby College Publishers, St. Louis, 1988. pages 409-419:

"The science of the development of the individual before birth is called embryology. It is the story of miracles, describing the means by which a single microscopic cell is transformed into a complex human being. Genetically the zygote is complete. It represents a new single celled individual."

DeCoursey, R.M., The Human Organism, 4th edition McGraw Hill Inc., Toronto, 1974. page 584:

"The zygote therefore contains a new arrangement of genes on the chromosomes never before duplicated in any other individual. The offspring destined to develop from the fertilized ovum will have a genetic constitution different from anyone else in the world."

In the Womb, National Geographic, 2005 (Prenatal Development Video):


"A new individual is created when the elements of a potent sperm merge with those of a fertile ovum, or egg."

 

Your right to life is not a product of the legal system, you are CREATED with it it is not granted by the government or the legal system. The founding fathers had lived in governments where it did and the made sure we would not be one of them.

 

The fact that the zygote/embryo/fetus is human is irrelevant to abortion.

 

Yes. A hair cell is also human. So what?

So much of the above is irrelevant argument over words. It isn't an argument that we should have compassion for a mere cell. So what if a freshly fertilized egg cell is a "human individual"? It isn't a being that in any way should have any rights or draw any compassion. It is a cell.

It has never had a thought or emotion. It has never felt pain or joy or any other sensation. It has never met another and has no friends. And unless it develops into something completely different than what it now is, it will never experience any of the above.

In practicality it is no different in any meaningful way than the sperm and egg that formed it. It is still just a system built to store, read and build from a pattern of DNA. Only once it does so do you get a being like ourselves.

 

But let's also look at the other side of this.

Considering a freshly fertilized egg a person is nonsensical. But waiting until the developing baby can breathe and eat on its own is also nonsensical, and extremely lacking in empathy and compassion.

Once the developing being in the womb has a developed nervous system capable of thought, capable of feeling pain and other sensations, you have a being that any moral or decent person should feel compassion for, and that we should consider for legal protection.

Where exactly the line is I can't say, but it isn't at either extreme, and I would err on the side of caution; on not murdering an innocent. Unless a good argument is made weighing the rights of the mother against the rights of the child ( yes, child).

And that is where the bodily autonomy argument can enter. Should a person who puts an innocent person in mortal danger with no ability to escape on their own be obligated to see that person to safety?

 

Are conjoined twins individuals or a single person if they share body parts? If one head of a two headed man/men kills the other is that suicide or murder?

 

They why do you get charged with murder for assaulting the mother and causing her to lose the “pre-viable fetus”?

Don’t worry. I’ll wait.

 

Because its against the woman's will.

 

I’m sorry but life is not determined by the whims of a woman.

 

If they cannot be separated and both parts survive, they are one individual.

It's fantasy. But you've heard of murder-suicide, right?

 

Because laws can say whatever some gang of lying morons, crooks, toadies, grafters, power-seekers, narcissists and sociopaths sitting in a legislature -- or on a Supreme Court -- want them to say.

You're welcome.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycephaly
https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/twins-share-body/

Two heads can exist on one body. I would call them 2 people; not one.

 

Such a person may have two heads, even two personalities. That doesn't make them two people.

 

Not interested in your hijacking of thé thread

A human right is a human right.
Not subject to thé current vagaries of political opinion or religions belief. As fundamental as thé right to speak.
Get out or peoples' private lives.

 

No, that is just false. It requires the woman's respiratory and digestive systems, and cannot exist without them.

But not separate respiratory or digestive systems, proving me right and you wrong.

No, there is only one circulatory system. And all the rest of the above can also occur without pregnancy.

Yep. They are just inside her. Hate to break it to you, but that is also possible without pregnancy.

False. The fetus is indisputably not "self-contained," as it is contained by the woman's body.

Ah, no. The latter CANNOT happen with a pre-viable fetus, proving they are NOT two separate individuals. So YOUR OWN SOURCE just proved me right and you wrong.

Quit while you are behind.

Wrong again. A fetus can die and be reabsorbed into the woman's body, proving, repeat, PROVING INDISPUTABLY that it was never a separate individual. Google "blighted ovum" and start reading.

Your ignorance of the relevant medical science is really quite remarkable considering how highly you tout your scientific chops.

As that CAN NEVER HAPPEN with a pre-viable fetus, YOUR OWN SOURCE again proves me right and you wrong.

Brain "death" is not death, and the pregnant woman was not dead.

I see. And a fetus likewise "decides" when it should be miscarried....?

< Ignoratio elenchi fallacies snipped >

If that "specific condition" is the woman's death, then the fetus was never a separate human being.

No, blighted ovum proves that is false.

Already refuted. The woman must provide the pre-viable fetus with her respiratory and digestive systems, as it is not a separate life.