English 102: "...to keep and bear arms"

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Golem, Mar 17, 2021.

  1. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    State militia regulation (which also included private usage of arms) since many state militiamen used their arms in state and private usage. This is why both the phrases to keep (use arms privately) arms and bear (use arms in war for the state) arms are in 2A.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
  2. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You know you cannot demonstrate this to be true.
     
  3. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is an absolute falsehood.
     
    Turtledude likes this.
  4. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The 2nd Amendment does not give any rights to any one or any thing.
     
  5. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is an absolute falsehood/.
     
    Turtledude likes this.
  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is an absolute falsehood.
     
  7. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,732
    Likes Received:
    7,795
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Except Art I Sec 8 already gave the feds plenary power over state militias, and the text of the 2a does not grant any power to the federal government. A plenary power is the ultimate authority to do as you command. They literally cannot grant themselves more power over state militias than that which they had already granted themselves years prior. There is no double secret authority.
    Further: Point to the language in the 2a that grants the federal government any powers. Be very specific.
     
    Turtledude likes this.
  8. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I could if you'd just read some history on the motivations and passage of 2A by the first Senate.:roll:
     
  9. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You're talking about natural law? That arms rights, for example, are already given to us by God?
     
  10. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You need to read the history and motivation of the passage of 2A by the first Senate.
     
  11. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Read the history of the passage of 2A for a change.
     
  12. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Except, I already pointed out the first Senate felt the need to regulate state militias more than what was already in The Constitution. You do know what amendments to The Constitution do???They change The Constitution.:roll:

    BTW, if the first Senators already knew there were existing regulations on state militias in The Constitution, I would think 2A was redundant, was unnecessary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  13. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Then do it.
    Oh wait.
    You won't
    Because you know you can't.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2022
  14. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm talking about the fact the 2nd Amendment does not give any rights to any one or any thing.
     
  15. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Cite it.
    Copy/paste the text that demonstrates claim to be true.
    Oh wait.
    You won't.
    Because you know you can't.
     
  16. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Cite it.
    Copy/paste the text that demonstrates claim to be true.
    Oh wait.
    You won't.
    Because you know you can't.
     
  17. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Look it up yourself. It's on the Internet. Use Google, for example. Lazy.
     
  18. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    47,848
    Likes Received:
    19,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thank you for making it clear there's no need for me to waste any more time on you.
     
    Turtledude likes this.
  19. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,732
    Likes Received:
    7,795
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You've certainly made naked assertions that you cannot back up.

    Point out where in the 2a ANY grant of ANY power is given to ANY government.
    Hell, while you're at it, point out ANY AMENDMENT IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS which grants a power to the feds.

    Go on. We'll wait.
     
  20. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    43,579
    Likes Received:
    19,260
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just one small thing to clarify (which you probably already know). The right to own... anything... was considered a natural law (the right to private ownership). Be it boots, a horse, a hat... and yes, a gun... But the 2nd A doesn't refer to any right to "own" anything. In any way whatsoever. It doesn't grant it, it doesn't limit it, it doesn't address it in any way shape or form. Because the right to own things... anything... already existed. So there was no need. The 2nd A reafirms the obligation of the states to form militias as a response to the right of the people to be part of them. Makes no difference, as far as the 2nd A goes, who owns the guns that they use. The only part of the Constitution where that is in any way addressed is in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 16; which gives Congress the power to provide for arming the militia.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2022
  21. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Messages:
    32,128
    Likes Received:
    21,314
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    More revisionist nonsense. You could make that argument about the entire bill of rights-which was what the federalists said-don't worry, this new government doesn't have the power to regulate, speech, arms, etc.
     
  22. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The limitation of 2A on federal power is that 2A won't countermand the wishes of arms rights as established by state constitutions...You know that last 13 words of 2A which everyone loves to quote, "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” means 2A won't infringe on the rights of state constitutions to establish arms rights.
     
  23. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I agree with your post. IMO, if someone wants to grant universal arms ownership to Americans, 2A should be scrapped and a new arms amendment passed, er, 2A should be scrapped since 2A is outdated since the federal gov't now has standing armies.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
    Golem likes this.
  24. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Which also begs the question: Why did the first Senate pass 2A if arms rights were already established and regulations for state militias were already established in The Constitution?
     
  25. cabse5

    cabse5 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2013
    Messages:
    7,217
    Likes Received:
    2,271
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If you know any history of the passage of 2A, you know that J. Madison introduced the wording of 2A and it was to be an exact copy of Virginia's arms rights provisions in Virginia's constitution which meant that 2A was going to grant 'universal arms right to Americans' but the bill was debated and debated and reworded by the first Senate until the convoluted hodgepodge of wording 2A now is.

    I suggest you read about the motivations of the passage of 2A by the first Senate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022

Share This Page