For The Sake of the Future, We have to Raise The Bar.

Let us raise the bar now.

Primitive construction of the question about "God":
"Do you believe in "God"?

Primitive answer to primitive question:
No. I do not believe in "God". There is no "God".


Primitive Results to primitive belief:
Because the question raised was primitive and so the
answer given, was too.

When the question "Do you believe in God"? was raised
it contains the assumption that "God" is truly in existence already.

And so logically there are only 2 options left for the people
to choose which is "yes' or "no".

Those who opted for the latter are now labeled as atheist.
This is the history of atheism.



Now as we raise the bar, meaning that the question
is now relevant to present time which is so far away from being primitive.

Progressive question:
Do you believe in the CLAIM of "God" made by the primitive Man?
This question renders the old and most primitve question
(Do you believe in "God") as moot and academic and is therefore
OBSOLETE.

So let us be progressive and not be primitive.
Are you now ready to raise the bar?

Polscie

 

If I would want to see the bar raised it wouldn't be based on semantics but on substance.

 

For the sake of the future?

Ya well...nice twist but...for the sake of the future...RELIGIONS should be banned! I'm not saying there are no Gawds...or even A GAWD...I'm saying we...humans...have USED whatever Gawds exist, as excuses for everything from incest to murder. ESPECIALLY the Christians. Never, in the history of mankind, has there been an organization SO EVIL!!!

Political empires have had no pretenses of being anything other than brutal

Conquerors have never come along and proposed peaceful co-existence

But the Christians..."Through peace shall he destroy many".

I don't blame the people who have faith in the Christian doctrine...But my personal disdain for the seething lies of this falsehood is so intense that it alarms me sometimes. It is frustrating to watch as they perpetuate their particular brand of BS.

Most Christians...or at least a HUGE percentage of them...hold these beliefs because their ancestors were told..."Worship our Gawd...or watch us kill your family." or a myriad of other threats these fine, peace-loving people used to convert anyone they came into contact with. Oh and if you happened to be an intelligent female in Europe a couple centuries back...the friggin' Christians labeled you a witch, and disposed of you in the most painful way possible.

The entire history of Christianity is one big contradiction.
People who defend these blood-thirsty animals will say, "Just look at all the GOOD the church does." Yes...were I holding billions of souls hostage, Id be putting up a front as well.

FOOLS!!!

So ya figure ya wanna PROGRESS with respect to theology?
GOOD...OUTLAW ORGANIZED RELIGIONS...ESPECIALLY CHRISTIANITY!!!

And for all you souless Christians out there...
Constantine BURNS for what he did...and I understand they're saving a nice warm spot near his oven...

...for YOU!

 

LOL!!! Please Stop you're killing me. You're so deep with your thoughts!!

 

As I said...I feel complete revulsion for Christianity.

NOTHING anyone can do, would even begin to atone for the suffering they have brought upon this Earth! And if Christianity DID want to atone for their long list of evil...then maybe they should open up their coffers and distribute their unbelievable wealth among those who now suffer because of their evil doctrine.

The starving aids case kids all over Africa and South America.

Go ahead Christians...put your money where your mouth is...

 

Is there something wrong with atheists?

Is this kind of crap supposed to be arguementation? Running around calling people liars? Primitive? Demanding that they be banned because .... why you've levelled a bunch of emotional accusations?

Really, maybe the lot of clearly very objective and scientific atheists should just put on their white robes, burn a few crosses (certainly seems the intent), and just acknowledge the hate filled nonesense for what it is.

Just remember, those who seeth in hatred and attack the innocent through trumpted up rationalization inevitably breed a backlash - and when it happens, well, you are not victims of prejudice - well, maybe your own.

Congrats on another display of reason and logic from atheism.

 

Is your creator, sustainer, lifeblood, your everything, existence itself?

ie.... is mother nature 'god' itself?

Perhaps raising the bar of comprehension is to 'know' god?

 

Question: When you read...do you really read...or do you just pick at the parts that you want?

You may believe whatever you want. And if it makes you feel good and act nice...BULLY!

But if your beliefs are Christian-based...you should balance your beliefs with knowledge of the organization you place your trust in.
Of course...if such a discovery would be too painful for you...then what can one say aside from, "Have a nice life...and approach your death with trepidation. You're in for a few surprises..."

 

It is people like you that give atheism a bad name. You rail against religion for forcing people to believe in something they don't but then you make the assertion that we should do that to them. You are a total hypocrite.

What is worse is that you have not backed up a singe assertion with any scrap of evidence.

Religion is not to blame for everything from incest to murder. We are quite capable of that without religion. People justify it with religion to soothe their own consciences but they would still do it without religion.

 

Whaa Whaa Whaa...let's not upset the Christians...GAWD knows they never deserve it...

Which "assertions" would you like me to provide evidence for?

I never said it was responsible for everything...did I...
No YOU simply prefer to read it that way. And then you finish the statement by agreeing with me...tell us again...WHO'S the Hypocrite?

If you don't have the spine to stand up for what's right...get outta the way so someone who does have a spine can do the dirty work for ya.

Enjoy the fence-sitting...

 

Others have agreed.

"Christianity persecuted, tortured and burned. Like a hound it tracked the very scent of heresy. It kindled wars and nursed furious hatreds and ambitions. It sanctified...extermination and tyranny...it dreamt of infinite blisses and crowns it should be crowned with before an electrified universe and an applauding God."
George Santayana (1863-1952)

"I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized by its churches, has been and still is, the principal enemy of moral progress in this world."
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)

 

Bravo Margot...its WAY past time a little light was shed on this organization.

 

Of course people would very likely commit evil - but what would they use to justify their deeds if they cant justify it in the service of their god. ?
Not all that long ago we use to hang-draw + quarter or burn heretics + witches perhaps even atheists , at the stake, all in the name of the Almighty Lord. I cant recall hearing of anything like that happening in Buddhism/Jainism/Zoroastrianism etc. can you ?

IMO - Humanity would have fared much better without any of the Abrahamic derived belief systems, of which I'm afraid Christianity (contrary to its preachings ) has the worse record.
..


,,,

 

Using religion to justify theft and cruelty is universal..

 

Thus the excuse must be removed.

 

Service to the revolution?

Profit?

Simple greed?

THEIR ideology? Culture?

I think atheism, given what happened under communism and facism have religion beat in the last century by a long shot. We also have simple Nationalism and what it did during the age of Imperialism.

What we have with such arguements above is a little phenomena called blinders. Good at seeing faults in the thing you have already decided to hate, bad at applying those standards of judgement anywhere else.

 

Human nature being what it is... those types would invent NEW excuses.

 

I disagree .

A) Italian Fascism was'nt atheistic .nore was Hitler's Nazis Check on the Catholic Church 's role "Gott Mit Uns " and all that..


B) Its debateable whether Marxist-Lenin Communism (or even Stalin) was much worse than conditions throughout Eastern Europe during the preceeding 18-19th Century.

..

 

The worst outbreak of violence in the history of the world can simply not be laid at the feet of religion - but facism - a decidedly human centered ideology.

THe worst outbreak of violence internal is comunist violence against its own people, of which atheism and the same anti-religious rhetoric that you espose is clearly a major part.

Imperialism does not have religious origins, but national ones. Indeed, the very ideas of Weltpolitik and Realpolitick are not religious in nature are they?

Gheghis Khan not exactly religious, though he dabbles in many - nearly destroyed civilization as we know it.

Attila the Hun - not exactly the organized religious type is it.

Trans Atlantic Slavery - its origins are not exactly religious are they? And the first real rumbling against this abhorrent practice are from ... Quakers - Christians.

And the list goes on. All you really have, in terms of violence is the Crusades - and this is key - there is really nothing in the middle ages that distinguishes the Crusades from any of the other Empire centeric violence that flares all over the world at the time.

Is it?

How about you make the case then? How about you make the case that Eastern Europe was better off with the dissolution of the Austrian Empire and the outbreak of Balkan violence and WWI that followed?

Imperialism is not confined to Eastern Europe - not by a long shot.

Now, given that the major conflicts since the 30 Years War have almost nothing to do with religion, how is it that violence keeps happening? But that YOU think the removal of religion will somehow reduce?

 

I'm afraid you're wrong oNCE again . The worse out breaks of violence preceede Fasmism which arrived with the Pope's blessing only in early 20th century . by which time we've seen considerably worse atrocitities - IN BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS.

READ AND LEARN :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doctrine_of_Fascism


IMO It's very likely that Attila and Genghis Khan etc, though not of an Abrahamic derived religion, might have followed their own pre-christian religions - hence not necessarily = ATHEISTS.

As for justication of "slavery" read yr bible (old testament)

"Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "

Slavery was sanctioned and carefully regulated by many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) largely in the Pentateuch - its first 5 books.
Additionally I find :-:

"595 CE: Pope Gregory dispatched a priest to Britain to purchase Pagan boys to work as slaves on church estates.
Circa 610: Isidore of Seville wrote: "I can hardly credit that a friend of Christ, who has experienced that grace, which bestowed freedom on all, would still own slaves." In his writing "Regula monachorum" which describes the monastic life, he wrote that "God has made no difference between the soul of the slave and that of the freedman." 1
Circa 600 CE: Pope Gregory I wrote, in Pastoral Rule: "Slaves should be told...not [to] despise their masters and recognize that they are only slaves."
655 CE: In an attempt to persuade priests to remain celibate, the 9th Council of Toledo ruled that all children of clerics were to be automatically enslaved. This ruling was later incorporated into the canon law of the church.
13th century CE: Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) accepted the teachings of the ancient Greek Pagan philosopher, Aristotle, that slavery is "natural."
1404 CE: After Spain discovered the Canary Islands the Spanish colonized the islands In 1435 Pope Eugene IV wrote a bull to Bishop Ferdinand of Lanzarote titled "Sicut Dudum." In it, he noted that the black inhabitants of the Islands had been converted to Christianity and either baptized or promised baptism. Subsequently, many of the inhabitants were taken from their homes and enslaved. He commanded that all enslaved Christians who were inhabitants of the Canary Islands be freed from slavery. The Pope's concern appears to have been over the enslavement of Christians by Christians, not the institution of human slavery itself. 2
1452/4 CE: Pope Nicholas V wrote Dum Diversas which granted to the kings of Spain and Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens [Muslims] and pagans and any other unbelievers" to perpetual slavery.
1519: Bartholomew De Las Casas, a Dominican, argued against slavery. "No one may be deprived of his liberty nor may any person be enslaved" He was ridiculed, silenced and ignored. 3
1537 CE: Pope Paul III wrote in Sublimis Deus about the enslavement of persons in the West and South Indies. He wrote that Satan:

"... the enemy of the human race...has thought up a way, unheard of before now, by which he might impede the saving Word of God. ... Satan has stirred up some of his allies ... who are presuming to assert far and wide that the Indians be reduced to our service like brute animals. And they reduce them to slavery, treating them with afflictions we would scarcely use with brute animals. ... Rather, we decree that these same Indians should not be deprived of their liberty…and are not to be reduced to slavery." only hostile non-Christians, captured in just wars, could become slaves. 4

1548 CE: Pope Paul III confirmed that any individual may freely buy, sell and own slaves. Runaway slaves were to be returned to their owners for punishment.
1660: Charles II of Britain urged the Council for Foreign Plantations to teach Christianity to slaves.
1629 to 1661 CE: Pope Urban VIII in 1629, Pope Innocent X in 1645 and Pope Alexander VII in 1661 were all personally involved in the purchase of Muslim slaves.


Need I go on ?

....

 

Open your mind - remove your blinkers , try seeing a bigger picture beyond the the last 30 yrs .

IMO - it'll be impossible to simply "remove " religion , the best one can hope for is , by education, its influence over peoples's mind can be reduced and lower the percentage of blind followers believing they are serving their god and earning credits ..


....

 

Never said "let's not upset the Christians", please don't put words in my mouth. As for which assertions I would like you to prove, here is the list:

• Never, in the history of mankind, has there been an organization SO EVIL!!!
• Political empires have had no pretenses of being anything other than brutal
• Conquerors have never come along and proposed peaceful co-existence
• But the Christians..."Through peace shall he destroy many".
• Most Christians...or at least a HUGE percentage of them...hold these beliefs because their ancestors were told..."Worship our Gawd...or watch us kill your family."
• or a myriad of other threats these fine, peace-loving people used to convert anyone they came into contact with.
• Oh and if you happened to be an intelligent female in Europe a couple centuries back...the friggin' Christians labeled you a witch, and disposed of you in the most painful way possible.

It is true you did not say Christianity was responsible for everything... I had misquoted. What my line should have read was:
Religion is not an excuse for everything from incest to murder. We are quite capable of that without religion. People justify it with religion to soothe their own consciences but they would still do it without religion.
.
As for having a spine, I do. That is why I'm standing up to your hatred and bigotry. I've heard this rhetoric time and time again from the bigots of the world but with different groups of people they despise. You are no better than someone like Fred Phelps.

 

Well, thanks for your totally unsupported opinion.

Lets see would teh removal of religion, particularly Christianity, have prevented even a single conflict in the past 30 years? Lets try JUST the US.

Vietnam? Nope.

Grenada? Nope.

Panama? Nope.

Somalia? Nope.

Haiti? Nope.

Afghanistan? Nope.

Iraq? Nope.

None of these wars have much of anything to do with religion, with most of them being about normal power politics and the ebb and flow of empire and economic actions.

In fact, Afghanistan is made into a haven for extremism not by choice, but by a brutal invasion from and communist atheist empire seeking to, from the time of civilization began, expand its borders and zone of control. It failed - and left behind a decivilized shatter zone that only men with guns could, or would, want to be in. And this says nothing about Afghanistans various ethnic and cultural differences that further exaggerate the problems of governing Afghanistan.

Perhaps you are talking about Israel and Palestine? Well, there are just as many Jewish and Islamic groups attempting to reach across the mutual divide as there are extremists on both side - more so. There is a reason that moderates in Israel are clear majority, and that Fatah enjoys broader support than Hamas.

Now tell us all, other than saying, "Come on - join the cult of nihilism," what do you really have?

Again, religion has not figured prominently in any large scale Western War since the end of teh 30 Years War and teh Treaty of Westphalia - which, BTW, laid the very foundation of the modern Nation State you take for granted today.

We stupid religious people realized that fighting and killing over a faith choice was stupid centuries ago and took largely successful steps to limit that conflict.

In the mean time atheisms contribution to conflict resolution has been .... castigation and blame. Actual analysis and problem solving remains a definitive weak point of atheism.

Indeed, as we speak of education - which of us appears to have a better grasp of the reality of conflict around the world? Indeed, it might be good for atheists to actually practice what they preach.

 

the key is not to believe in the claim of "God".

polscie

 

You know, it's very rude to type in big bold letters.