Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

It is referring to when He became a human being......begotten does not mean created begotten means to be born. If Jesus was created before He became a human being it could not be said that He was born. The Word who we know as Jesus was born of Mary.

When the Word, who is God became a human being he became just like us. He did not have the glory and power that He had with the Father that He had for eternity.....He temporarily gave it up. That is why Jesus said this when He was dying....And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 (ASV)

Because He became a human being.....He temporarily limited Himself.

That's what Jesus said......we become one just as He and His father are one...since the Bible says all three live in His people individually, and we individually lives in God, then by the spirit we are one, though in body we are separate.

Here is an example of the bride of Christ speaking as one being

Revelation 22:17 (ASV)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

A triune god reconciles the widely different personas of three gods into one. Bad cop, good cop, and ? cop.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
The verse of scripture at John 8:58 where it uses the expression "I am" is a translation blunder aka error that was deliberately done by Trinitarian translators. Jesus is simply saying that he existed before Abraham—and all humans for that matter, including the first man Adam. You have to remind yourself that the pre-human Jesus is a created being. A created being cannot be part of a trinity in which he is co-equal to the one who created him.

To show you the dishonesty of Trinitarian translators, the same Greek term used by Jesus at John 8:58 and translated "I am" is used at many other parts of the New Testament and correctly translated at those parts when it does not involved Jesus. For instance, the man that was born blind that was healed by Jesus Christ is mentioned with the exact set of Greek words that were used at John 8:58. But the Trinitarian translators made sure they added on the extra words "the man" so that instead of "I am," it became "I am the man."

The expressions "I am the man" and "I am he" are actually the correct translation of the Greek. The expression "I am" is a deliberate translation error, and it's done only at John 8:58 to fool people into believing Jesus is the same person (Jehovah) who spoke to Moses at Exodus 3:14. Now, is this dishonesty on the part of translators or what? (That's a rhetorical questions, by the way.)


Interestingly, the Apostle Paul used the same phrase with reference to himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29) Since the same phrase was use with the Apostle Paul and the man who was born blind, are we to conclude they were also in a trinity with Jehovah God?

 

A word can change or have a slightly different meaning depending on how it's used......so its how Jesus used it that is unique, because no one else is recorded in the Bible to have used it the He did.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
What point are you attempting to make with John 8:42? The words "I proceeded forth and came from God" is another way of saying: "I was instructed by God" OR "I came at the direction of God." Those are expressions made by someone saying he was taking orders from a superior. We know that's what Jesus meant because of the context—the very next words that follow the semicolon, as follows: "neither came I of myself...." He drove the point home by ending with: "he sent me."

In the rules of hierarchy, the one sent forth can never be equal to the one sending him—unless you're going to start insisting that God sent himself, which defies logic. Notice the same verse of scripture below from various translations.

VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS OF JOHN 8:42​

New World Translation
"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth."


GOD'S WORD Translation
"Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me. After all, I'm here, and I came from God. I didn't come on my own. Instead, God sent me."


New International Version
"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me."


New Living Translation
"Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me."


English Standard Version
"Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me."


New American Standard Bible
"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me."


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."



Throughout the scriptures, Jehovah is always the one issuing instructions to Jesus—showing without question that Jesus is subservient to Jehovah. It is never the other way around. According to the Trinity dogma defined in my Opening Post, the Father, the Son, and they holy spirit are CO-EQUAL ("one power").


Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be THREE PERSONS, of ONE substance, POWER, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
http://www.victorianweb.org/religion/39articles.html



Jesus contradicted that statement himself when he said the following.
"You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the father, because the father is GREATER than I am." (John 14:28 )

~***~​

 

That is not what the Greek word means that is translated proceeded.

Exerchomai: from <G1537> (ek) and <G2064> (erchomai); to issue
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

Issue:
a. The act or an instance of flowing, passing, or giving out.
b. The act of circulating, distributing, or publishing by an office or official group: government issue of new bonds.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/issue

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
Jesus used the exact same expression as Paul and the man born blind. He also used the "I am" expression at Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; and John 18:5, 6 and 8. But in all of those places it's translated: "I am Christ" OR "I am he". The Trinitarian translators did their dishonest job only at John 8:58 where they could slip it in without notice. Had they attempted to do it at the verses I listed above, their dishonesty would have been easily detected as those verses involve situations with people that were still alive or would be born in the future. At John 8:58, Abraham was long dead, and so it was easy to distort the translation to just plain "I am."

Specifically, at the above verses, Jesus was warning his disciples about future false prophets who would say "I am Christ" or "I am he." So as you can see, the expression: "I am" by itself would have interfered with the logic of Jesus' warning in the above verses about future false prophets.

 

Maybe you should tell that to the other translators I listed. They all came back with similar expression in which they ended with Jesus saying he did not come of his own accord or of his own initiative--meaning he was taking orders.

 

This mean Jesus is the Son of God, this mean that Jesus, Holy Spirit and God are One = Trinity.

 

Two people can use the word "Great" and yet mean two different things. So show me who else used "I am" the same way Jesus did?

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He said God was His father, which meant He was equal with God.

John 5:17-18 (ASV)
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.
18 For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

 

It still does not change the fact that Jesus used the Greek word exerchomai.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BFSMITH@764:
Obviously, you are going to continuing to believe Jesus is the same "I am" (Jehovah) at Exodus 3:14, despite the fact other people in the New Testament also used the identical Greek words meaning "I am."



Obviously you are going to continue believing Jesus and Jehovah are part of a 3-prong god, despite the fact the Bible says Jesus was sent by Jehovah—indicating Jehovah is superior.

"Jesus told them, "If God were your Father, you would love me. After all, I'm here, and I came from God. I didn't come on my own. Instead, God sent me." (John 8:42 -- GOD'S WORD Translation)

"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42 -- King James Bible)



Obviously, you are going to continue refusing to accept that Jesus was created as an angel, despite the fact that the Bible refers to him at Colossians 1:15 as the firstborn of ALL CREATION—meaning he was created long before he arrived on earth as an infant and in fact, he was created by Jehovah ahead of all the other angels and ahead of the earth, the moon, the stars, etc. (thus the expression "firstborn of ALL CREATION").

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of ALL CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)

DEFINITION OF "BORN": "Born means having been given life."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/born

DEFINITION OF "CREATE": "To cause to exist; bring into being."
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...y/entry/create
http://www.yourdictionary.com/create



Obviously, you are going to continue refusing to accept that when the Bible refers to Jesus as "begotten" at John 1:14 and John 3:16, it means he is a created being.

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten



Obviously, you are going to continue to believe that when Jesus said at John 10:30: "the Father and I are one," he literally meant they are the same god. It matters not to you that he used the same expression with reference to his disciples—indicating that he was simply referring to unity of purpose or being in agreement.

"{20} I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; {21} in order that they may ALL BE ONE, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order the world may believe that you sent me forth. {23} Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:20-22)

Neither does it matter to you that the Bible uses the same expression when referring to Adam and Eve becoming "one" flesh as man and wife at Genesis 2:24.



In other words, this is not about what the Bible says. This is about what you have choosen to believe. You've demonstrated that you have no desire to be corrected by the scriptures and that you are going to continue believing God is a Trinity no matter what the Bible says.

"{16} ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, {17} that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)


Since it's clear to me that you will reject any explanation I give you regarding the scriptures—because for you, traditions and philosophies of men take precedence over what the Bible says—I am ending the discussion.


I will not be responding to you again on this topic.

 

Yes, He (Jesus) is the one who lead the Israelites out of Egypt and throw the wilderness.

 

Are you sure that Jesus spoke Greek?

http://catholicexchange.com/what-language-did-jesus-speak/

Notice that claiming that Jesus didn't speak Greek means that his brothers were his cousins and not his siblings. That's important for the Catholics because it means that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

"For example, when the &#8220;brothers of Jesus&#8221; are referred to in Scripture, it&#8217;s important to know that they are cousins, not children of Mary. We know this because Aramaic has no word for &#8220;cousin&#8221; and Semitic cultures usually consider all male relatives as &#8220;brother&#8221; or &#8220;uncle.&#8221; In fact, not to refer to a male relative as &#8220;brother&#8221; or &#8220;father&#8221; or &#8220;uncle&#8221; is a way of distancing oneself from them. If we try to go with the English word, or even the Greek one, then we run the risk of drawing the wrong conclusion from the word &#8220;brother&#8221; or &#8220;rock,&#8221; and that weakens our personal understanding of the faith."

 

You realize that I'm not interested in your interpretation?

 

This is an interesting discussion, but from the beginning, it is a circular argument. No one has proved one's point beyond the word "interpretation." And, that's the rub! Result? It's a game of "rational" discourse long the entertainment and profession of readers of the law.

So, believe what you want about who Jesus is or is not. The point really is: It doesn't matter. It's the philosophy that counts. Humans wrote this story and humans get things wrong, usually unintentionally, but wrong nevertheless. I believe in the Biblical philosophy of love over hate because it brings peace of mind, not argument.

I don't consider the Bible as divinely inspired. There is ample human "literature" that is equal to and even superior to the many versions of the Bible. What lives in the Biblical conversation is the philosophy it teaches, but that gets lost in the argument over "details" that distract from the philosophy. It's "fun" to argue. It's not much "fun" to love someone who vehemently disagrees with one's convictions. That is the distraction that divides, not unites humanity to pursue peace. The current global situation is a prime example of that distraction. It is the distraction that leads to war and the destruction of humanity's best interest to live for peace and humility.

 

You have clearly use Catholic-Christian Bible to quote the divinity of Jesus Christ and proof the existence of the Trinity, the only problem is you have made up your own interpretation against what is clearly written in the Bible, as you have quoted Biblical verses yourself Jesus Christ is the Son of God, "I AM", "in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit"....too many revelations in the Bible that clearly indicates, imply and reveal that Jesus Christ is the Son of God not an angel especially since nothing in the Bible that mention Jesus is an angel that claim can only be found in the corrupted book of Mormons which they are not Christians.

Jesus Christ was not created he was born with a human mother and God as his father.
Adam and Eve were created without any human parents.

Understand this, before a person can be created, he has to be born, before that there must be sexual mating. Jesus was born before he was created. But because Jesus is God, he has always been in existence and God became human by being born, "born not made" God does not need to create Himself. That is why the Apostle Creed statement is that Jesus was born not made.

So please proof that Jesus is not the Son of God and there exist no Trinity.

 

Is this clear enough for your or are you more interested in presented your own idea?

John 5:18 (KJV)
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

It's what the Bible say that I go by not by how many people believe whatever. So anyone who claim that the Jews were not the ones that wanted Jesus dead, are speaking from something they made up or came from someone that made it up.....or maybe you are lying.

This is getting into the area of what Ifs. I don't worry or live by what Ifs. There was no chance that the Jews were not going to get Jesus crucified.....Jesus' crucifixion was foretold in the Old Testament. Jesus also said that only a few among the Jew would believe Him....that no one could come to Him unless it was granted by His Father. So there is no need or reason to get into what Ifs. The fact is what happened is what happened...period.

According to me? Where did you read me saying that? I would never say that because the Bible does not say that either.....that is your twisted version. Its no wonder you skeptics are skeptics......you never stop making stuff up about what the Bible says, that you think those who were inspired to write the Bible are like you.

When Mary saw her Son, Jesus on the cross it was not God she saw mocking and making false accusations against her Son, she saw her own people doing it. But anyway, you ask silly questions that show plainly that you have no idea what God is doing......your just stabling in the dark hoping to hit something.

 

Are you a Jew? The Bible says that they are God's people.

We can discuss other ethnocentric religious fairy tales if you like. The Greeks and Egyptians have a lot of gods and so do the Hindus.

 

But. you can't find one verse where it explains that Jesus was an angel?