Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

Most Protestants swear by the KJV and use it as their preferred Bible. It clearly includes a passage about the "trinity". When I read the Bible I read the assorted versions and they convey the same ideas even if they use different verbiage. The New World Translation appears to change or omit some of the main ideas found in the other versions.

I admit, after reading and discussing the story from beginning to end I toss almost all of it. My favorite books are Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Sirach, the book of Wisdom, and one or two others. Some are found in the Catholic Bible versions. I think they have some value because they are more secular than the other books.

IMO you initated your discussion without stating your biases. That's a misleading tactic. I've stated why I disregard the story and I supply Bible references for my position. You appear to believe most of it but reject some major ideas that are central to the story. It's like saying that Tarzan lived on a house boat instead of in a tree house in the jungle. While I don't believe in Tarzan I do know his story so anything that deviates from the basic elements is in error.

You are in error if you call yourself a Christian but don't believe in the "trinity" because the "trinity" is an essential part of the Christian religion. And I don't have to believe in any of it to arrive at that conclusion. I just have to compare your beliefs to the elements of the story.

 

Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?
From rev 3:12....

God was to get a new name, and in 325AD he got Trinity:


12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall gono more out: and I will writeupon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

What's the new name?

 

>
It has been called Trinity for over 1700 years now, so I guess that was the prophecy filfulled de fato.

 

Your understanding of that scripture is wrong. First thing its not talking about God but the individual Christian. Why would God need to overcome, and what would He be overcoming? Don't you see that its Jesus who is speaking, by saying, I will writeupon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God? It’s the saints that that scripture is referring to.....God is going to give all His children a new name. The new City has not come down as yet....that will happen after the second resurrection. Here's what it says and read it carfully......don't put your own meaning to it or the Catholic Church's meaning.


Revelation 21:1-4 (ASV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more.
2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God:
4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.

Look at verse 4. Can you honestly say that all tears have been wiped away and there no more death or mourning? This is something that is yet to come......and God is not yet dwelling with man.

 

It has not....yet. What cupid dave is saying is false. There is nothing in that verse that one could honestly say has come to pass.

 

The Doctrine of the Trinity is progressively revealed through scriptures..it is taught in many places that God is three persons yet one God.

*Genesis 1:26 says "Let us make God in OUR image, after OUR likeness." This is a plural verb (let us) and the plural pronoun (our). This specifically mentions something more…and it is not angels…they had no hand in creation. This verse then suggests plurality of persons in God himself.



*Genesis 3:22 says, "Behold the man has come as one of us, knowing good and evil."

*Genesis 11:7 says, "Come let us go down, and their confused their language."

*Isaiah 6:8 says,"Whom shall I send and who will go for us?"

Notice the combination of singular and plural in these verses.

There are passages where one person is called God or the Lord and is distinguished from other person who is also said to be God. In Psalm 45:6-7

*" Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right scepter. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

An earthly king is not being described here…because the king here is God…whose throne will last forever and ever. Then still speaking to God…the Psalmist says God thy God has set you above your companions. So two separate persons are called God. In the New Testament the author of Hebrews quotes this passage and applies it to Christ: "Your throne, O God is for ever and ever. Hebrew 1:8.

*Psalm 110:1 says, "The Lord says to my lord:“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

Here Jesus understands that DAvid is referring to two separate persons as Lord. Matthew 22:41-46…..but who is Davids Lord if not God himself? And who could be saying to God…"Sit at my right hand" except someone who someone else who is also fully God?

From a New Testament perspective, this is the meaning: "God the Father said to God the Son, sit at my right hand. That is what it says. But even without the New Testament teaching on the trinity, it seems clear that DAvid was aware of a plurality of persons in one God.

*Isaiah 63:10 says, "Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them."

This suggests both that the Holy Spirit is distance from God himself and that this Holy Spirit can be grieved, thus suggesting evolutional capabilities characteristic of a distinct person.

*"New Testament…..When Jesus was baptized "the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him, and lo, a voice from heaven saying, "This is my Son with whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17

Here we have three members of the Trinity performing three distinct activities. God the Father is speaking from heaven…God the Son is being baptized….and is then spoken to from heaven by God the Father and God the Holy Spirit is defending from heaven to rest upon and empower Jesus for his ministry.

*Matthew 28:19 At the end of Jesus' ministry He tells his disciples that they should go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Three distinct…persons…but One.

*The last verse of 2 Corinthians is trinitarian. 2 Corinthians 13:14 says, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Three persons mentioned separately.

*Ephesians 4:4-6 says, "There is one body and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all."

1 Peter

*Again all three persons of the Trinity mentioned. "According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood"

*Jude 20-21 "But you beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith;pray in the Holy Spirit: keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the energy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

The trinity is hard to comprehend, a mystery but is still there. The evidence throughout the entire Bible shows that God is three persons,….each person is fully God….there is ONE GOD.

They each have different functions…but all work together.

Is it essential to believe this way? I believe it is. If you dont the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being, not fully God then its hard to see how he, a creature could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Could any creature like this, no matter how great really save us? Justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full deity of the Son. If Jesus is not fully God we would rightly doubt whether we can really trust him to save us completely. Could we really depend on any creature fully for our salvation? No. If Jesus is not the infinite God should we pray to Him or worship Him? Who but God could hear and respond to all the prayers of all of us? If Jesus is only a creature…then it would be idolatry to worship him…yet the New Testament tells us to do so. ????? (Philipians 2 9-11 and Reveleation 5:12-14)

If the Trinity is false then worshipping Jesus in anyway is wrong. It exalts a creature and not God. If there is no Trinity, then there were no interpersonal relationships within the being of God before creation and without personal relationships its difficult to see how God could be genuinely personal or be without the need for a creation to relate to. Does not make sense.

I will end with this….If theres not plurality and perfect unity in God himself, then we have no basis for thinking there can be any ultimate unity among the elements of the universe either. The entire heart of the Christian faith lies in the Trinity.

 

?
The clear statement "my new name" was prophesied in 90AD.

For the last 2000 years, Trinity is th only candidate to date.

It would seem that a Statue of Limitations has run out in regard to challengingthat single candidate for just such a name.
And it is very more clear, that de facto, a New Name for him has and did come for christians as predicted.

For the first 1000 years, under the Universal Chruch, before there was a schism by the Greek Orthodox Church, that name was mandatory and repeated and used and fulfilled the prophecy... de facto of history.

 

When it was said is not really important and the subject was not God but those who overcome, would get a new name, which is to happen after the New Jerusalem comes down from God out of Heaven. That is something that is yet to come.

Revelation 3:12 (KJV)
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

 

The Genesis 11:7 (NKJV) verse "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech” does not refer to all of humanity. It only refers to the Israelite/Hebrew/Jew group. Always remember that it's an ethnocentric religious fairy tale based solely upon the exploits of one particular ethnic group.

Genesis 11:1-2 (KJV) = And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

Do you really think that all of humanity was on a mass migration from the east and settled in Shinar (aka Babylonia)? Did all of the vacant lands have their names written on signposts?

What happened was a group of folks were migrating and decided to do a land grab on Babylonian territory. The Babylonians weren't having any of that and swooped down on the invaders and carted them off into slavery after destroying their town. The Tower of Babel story represents the dispersal of the Jews as captives in foreign lands.

The story ends in the New Testament in Acts chapter 2 on the Day of Pentacost when all of the attendees could understand each other. It represents the reunification of the Jews.

BTW, the God in this particular story was the Babylonian emperor.

 

Catch up on your history, fellow...
The Cube Shaped 1500 mileX1500 mileX1500 mile New Jerusalem CAME and went for the 1000 years of the single and only Christian Church during the Dark Ages of Universal Christianity:





Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (Christianity mandated as the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, in 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (that was Roman Culture, including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands (those monks living in moneyless monastic environments);

and they, (the saints/apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since the appearance of the Gospels in 54AD, i.e., those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remain)...
.... and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).
/////

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, (The Gospels, first appearing in 54AD, The Book of Matthew: [John 16:13]), whom I will send unto you from the Father, (The Gospel Truth), even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he, (The Gospels) shall testify of me:

 

Where in the Bible did it say the New Jerusalem is a cube? All that the scripture that I read gave was how high and how long and broad it was, but that does not mean it is a cube……it could be in the shape of a pyramid. And if it came where is it? Where is the 15,000 miles high city? What the City being 15,000 miles high have to do with as you call it the single and only Christian Church during the Dark Ages of Universal Christianity? How do you explain the fact that there is still death, pain, sorrow and crying still going on in the world, which the Bible said would be no more after the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven?


Revelation 21:1-5 (NKJV)
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."


The problem with you Catholics is that you twist the scriptures to make it fit the Catholic Church's belief, even if it means you have to insert in the verse what is not there. Don't you know that a curse was pounced on anyone who adds or took away from what is written in the book of Revelation? Only a cursed Church would do that. Every single thing that you post there is totally garbage.....nothing redeemable is written there.

 

This is simply your opinion…no factual basis whatsoever. I believe the Scriptures are the Word of God…you are a pagan and deny this…you make pot shots…any chance you get against those who love Him. Debating someone like you is worthless. It is always a voluntary act to harden the heart as you willfully have done. You have a one-sided view of the whole question of God and because of that…well….nuff said.

 

the word of god ? Hahhahaah ! which god + which Scriptures - OT or NT ?

Zeus - Odin- Jupitar - Brahma- Krishna - EL - Allah - Eloihim or WOT ?

..

 

6) I am not catholic.



1) Where in the Bible did it say the New Jerusalem is a cube?

The Place where God speaks directly to man has always been in a cube shaped room.
In the tent of the tabernacle that cube shaped place was called the Most Holy Place:






In Solomon's Temple that room as clearly cube shaped geometry:

19 And the oracle he prepared in the house within, to set there the ark of the covenant of the Lord.

20 And the oracle in the forepart was twenty cubits in length, and twenty cubits in breadth, and twenty cubits in the height thereof: and he overlaid it with pure gold; and so covered the altar which was of cedar.





This room is mentioned againin Ez 46.
The New Jerusalem is the place where all Christian Rome spoke with God for 1000 years of Monasticism, too.

 

What does the Old Testament tabernacle have to do with the New City of God? Most room in houses or office buildings tends to be like a cube, but that does not mean the building is a cube. You are really grasping at straws here. The tabernacle is not a city. And where in the Bible did it say the New Jerusalem is a place where all Christian Rome spoke with God for a thousand years? And you did not answer this question...How do you explain the fact that there is death, pain, sorrow and crying still going on in the world? There should be no more death or pain or sorrow when it is set up. The scripture says the City, the New Jerusalem would come down from God out of Heaven, but your interpretation contradicts that.

 

Your response is proof of my statement that the Bible is NOT divinely inspired. Why? All prophesy is only 'accurate' when people ascribe fulfillment AFTER the 'so-called' event. ALL the so called prophets, be they Bible prophets or others are called 'prophets' ONLY AFTER the prophesy is ascribed to the event claimed to have been fulfilled. Most of these so called 'prophesies' are ambiguous at best, using explicit interpretations from 'allegories' of the event.

My point: Humans are responsible for scripture. Considering the history of language, how it is interpreted from one language to another to another, etc., and the lack of archeological evidence leaves it up to argument alone.

Ah, yes, so that's where the term, "faith" becomes the "decider" of what is 'truth,' not human reason. Without 'faith' one is a non-believer. That's where the rules for a 'scientific' theory are explained away as 'human,' not inspired by god. On that, there seems to be little disagreement.

I trust in the proof that scientific theory brings to us. It is ALL we have to explain the body of knowledge we have of the universe, life, and everything of what it is made and how. Is there a god? I don't know. The bottom line on whether god is a 'creator' or not is this: Who created god? The response: 'god' is timeless or has always been there is no answer, it's a faith explanation that cannot be proved. There is NO proof that mankind was created in the image of god. It's a human answer because that's ALL we know of so called 'rational' or logical thinking. Besides, humans are insidious in the belief that human life is the ONLY rational life in existence, so god must be 'rational.'

Perhaps, god is not humanlike.

I am NOT trying to 'debunk' any religious belief. What I see in ANY religious dogma is it becomes divisive and destructive so much so that people kill each other over the 'rules, when every religious teaching says, "Do not kill." But, we do; and if one looks at the life and death aspect of the earth's existence, from virus to war, killing is the method upon which 'Nature' maintains a 'balance' for earth's survival until the sun goes nova and the entire solar system is consumed into gas and debris. In human terms, how does one not see that as rational as opposed to god's 'word' that says, do not kill? Which is the priority?

 

Have you ever read your favorite religious fairy tale?

Revelation 21:16 (CEB) = 16 Now the city was laid out as a square. Its length was the same as its width. He measured the city with the rod, and it was fifteen hundred miles. Its length and width and height were equal.


Revelation 21:16 (DRA) = And the city lieth in a foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the golden reed for twelve thousand furlongs, and the length and the height and the breadth thereof are equal.

Revelation 21:16 (NLT) = When he measured it, he found it was a square, as wide as it was long. In fact, its length and width and height were each 1,400 miles

Revelation 21:16 (CEV) = The city was shaped like a cube, because it was just as high as it was wide. When the angel measured the city, it was about fifteen hundred miles high and fifteen hundred miles wide.

Revelation 21:16 (NKJV) = The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

Even the Jehovah Witness NWT Bible says the same thing:
Revelation 21:16 (NWT) = And the city lies foursquare, and its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs; its length and breadth and height are equal.

Now a geometry lesson: cube 1 (kjuːb)

— n
1. a solid having six plane square faces in which the angle between two adjacent sides is a right angle
2. the product of three equal factors: the cube of 2 is 2 × 2 × 2 (usually written 2³)
3. something in the form of a cube: a bath cube
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cube?s=t

The place is a cube because all 6 sides are the same dimensions (length, width, height).

 

It does not necessarily mean that it must be a cube......does not a pyramid have four equal sides? Can not a pyramid be also as high as it is wide and long?

 

A pyramid's four sides are triangles. You can't have a pyramid with four square sides.

Besides, I think that if you had a pyramid with a base square of 1,500 miles and a height of 1,500 miles that it would be unstable and collapse.

 

Where does it say the City has four square sides or shape like a cube? It can be a cube but it does not mean it have to be. God is the creator of the City and the materials that are used are not of this Earth.

 

Strain a gnat here since this idea of a sacred cube permeates the scriptures and the rituals of Judaism.

The Jews actually attach a cube shaped box to the forehead when they "talk" to god through prayer.
Jesus mentioned them and complained they made them to big and ostentatious:

 

Of course.
The 1500 mile cube was metaphysical as the illustration suggests.
It was representative of the dimensions of the Roman Empire which for 1000 years lived in the Sukkoh or Booth that all Jews are commanded to live in at least once a year:





THIS CUBE OVER THE HEADS OF ALL ROMANS WAS FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY:

16 And everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles or Booths.

 

That's interesting. Where did you find your link?

 

That the constant response but my question has still gone unanswered.