a lot of the misunderstandings about Christianity come from a lack of wisdom about human nature

I do not believe in what you call "priestly authority and religious dogma." I do believe the truth that if you persist in your "dogma" that you have no need of a Savior, you will stew in your imperfection for eternity. Of course I am a follower of Jesus and I believe what He said, so I'll stand by that.....call it dogma or whatever. I don't judge you because you might someday become humble.....just relaying to you the facts.

 

Agree that humans are inherently sinful - sort of - but will not nit pic. Where your core statement errs is in the claim that this inherent sinfulness goes away when one is not apart from God - it doesn't - Most Christians sin on a regulare basis - as do most people.

So -- kind of hard to see the need for a Savior either way - least not from this perspective/logic.

The second point - Forgiving a sin committed against you may not change the nature of a person.

 

Yes they do, but Christians who have truly accepted that fact and recognized they have fallen short, can have redemption because God reached out to them. He has provided a covering for their sins and has "begun" a good work in them that will not be finished until the next life.

 

Note again how bad a communicator this supposed God is.

 

OK - but haiving one's previous sin forgivin - does not mean the person is no longer sinful - and/or will not sin again.

I am only addressing the logical flaw in the previous posters argument - not making any claims with respect to the value of forgiveness in getting through the pearly gates - that is a separate issue.

 

What makes you think we dont criticize government? We often do, and push to reshape it frequently. Democratic government is by the people and for the people. God is a dictator who cant be voted out of power no matter how corrupt and abusive.

 

I think you misunderstand the basis of the modern justice system. It is not all about bloodthirsty vengeance. It is about protecting society and separating dangerous people from the masses, and even about reform. Torturing people after death, with no hope of reform, for infinite time (for a finite wrong) is cruel and pointless.

 

No problem.

I'll add one small thing.... I don't believe there are degrees of sin. All sin is sin. However, there is a difference in the weakness of the flesh that causes imperfection in everyone, and "walking in sin " unabashedly. Those that have accepted the "gift" never walk in sin. They are convicted. Yet they sin.

 

Ahhh .. now we have an interesting premise on the table "Severity of Sin". I take a much different view - and in fact can show that Jesus sets the bar pretty low..

While it is true that sin is sin - not all sin is the same in the eyes of the Most High -- via the Logos - HeyZeus. my latinized pronunciation of the name Jesus .. which is more properly Yeshua . rooting from Joshua - Jah Yah .. rastafa.

We are told there is one "Unforgivable Sin" for example .. The "Abomination of Desolation" / "Awfull Horror" need not get into what this is but my take is that this is "Speaking for God" .. putting words in God's mouth.

In the Sermon from Jesus on how to get through the pearly gates he opens with "those who are weak in spirit - shall inherit the kingdom"

He then goes on to state that only those who are more righteous than the lawmakers and the Pharisees will make it.

In both cases we have a reference to severity -some being worse than others -- fortunately Jesus hated the Pharisee's and had no respect for them .. so being more righteous than that crew is not so hard.

What you need to consider - as clearly you have not given your "all sin the same" position - is what did the Pharisees do that was so bad ? - that their actions constitute some kind of bar ? - and is this related to the "unforgivable sin" perhaps .. hint hint hint.. misrepresenting God.

When asked by the rich man - how to get through the gates - Jesus responds -- follow the commands (could be read - the teachings) and note that the commands are different than Jewish Law - which Jesus did not follow.

He tells the fellow to follow the commands - don't kill - don't steal and so on. When the fellow says he has done all this .. Jesus much misinterpreted response is " If you want to be Perfect .. sell all your stuff and follow me"

In no way has Jesus set perfection as the bar for entrance. He has given a High bar -- where for sure you get in .. and a Low bar - where you don't.

The Pharisees are not the only low bar Jesus sets however.. I will leave it to you to come up with another.

 

Very obviously the Yahweh-thing and the Jesus-thing lacked any wisdom about human nature.

Then again, god-things were invented by humans, so naturally, god-things are inherently flawed.

The only thing one needs to understand about human nature is:

1) 1.5% of people will always do the right thing, regardless of the consequences to themselves, their families, their jobs/careers, their finances, their standing in the community, etc, etc, etc.
2) 14.5% of people will do the right thing, but only if they suffer no consequences.
3) 32% of people will do the right thing only if they are rewarded or gain some benefit or advantage.
4) 32% of people will do the wrong thing if they believe they won't suffer any consequences.
5) 14.5% will always do the wrong thing if the reward or advantage is great enough.
6) 1.5% will always do the wrong thing regardless of the consequences or the rewards.

That's all you need to know.

 

That breakdown probably is similar to reality.

 

If you want to begin a Bible Study with me, I'll certainly do it. I appreciate your approach , let me give you mine. There is one sin that is unforgiveable. That is the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". We know John 3:16 and other versus, it is the Desire of God that ALL would be reconciled to Him. He loves us and wants that return of love so He gave us choice. The Bible is clear that God continually strives to reach us and influence our hearts decisions. The Holy Spirit is that vehicle as Jesus said "I will send you a teacher". Most all of us have rejected the Holy Spirits prodding at one time in our life. The important thing is we have a lifetime to respond to those proddings. After it is over....it is over. To not respond at that time, I believe would be "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." I refer to the one thief who died on the cross who finally believed but he almost ran out the clock! Jesus said to him "tonight you will be with me in Paradise!"

As to the Pharisees.... I do believe Jesus was making a reference to the "spirit" of the Pharisees. You do know there was a Pharisee named Joseph that asked for the body of Jesus and buried him in his personal tomb? The Pharisees were the "Keepers of the Law". They actually made up a lot of laws. They thought by keeping those laws, they had Salvation. They were arrogant and prideful in suggesting they kept the law. Their hearts were hard. Scripture predicts "many will be Godlike in form but they will deny the power thereof." That is true in many churches as well as the cults. We must depend on the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent us. That unites the Body of Christ in His Word.

Salvation is of grace not works, it is the work of God so we can never be prideful of what we have done.

 

Hold on here .. we are talking about "The unforgivable Sin" - and severity of sin. You quoted some random scripture John 3:16 .. Loved world .. sent son - but never state how this scripture addresses severity of sin.. Great . Jesus was sent to teach us forgiveness .. which too is works.

Blasphamy of the Holy Spirit is what ? and using John is specious to begin with .. or at least starting out there as this is from Mark/Matt .. those concepts not having been flushed out yet . .. but will be allowed. You just jumping there without addressing the gospel context from where these came from is not where you start mate.

Passage says .. any sin can be forgiven -- can speak word against the Father - and of the son .. but he who speaks against the Holy Spirit is toast.

First thing to note is that the Trinity is weak in the knees.. how can we speak against one but not all ? -- but in 60 AD .. there was no such concept .. so was A-OK ..

The "Awful Horror" "Abomination of desolation" was when God was thrown out Jewish Temple and Replaced with and effigy of the new God - one representing the king - who was "pontifex Maximus" - conduit between Man and God -- whose word was "the word of God" - supplanting the word of the Old God.

In John Jesus is characterized as "The Logos" - emissary between man and God .. - who spoke God's word through the Holy Spirit - who himself was the embodiment of "Gods Word"

A sin against the spirit is to usurp the position of "The Logos" - put words in his mouth -- at the same time putting words in God's mouth - a sin against the Spirit - by which Jesus spoke God's Word.

This has nothing to do with Grace .. so your last comment is specious - just a random "Sola Fide" - Salvation by faith alone .. backed up with nothing claim.

The Pharisees did make up alot of laws = Putting words in Gods Mouth...

This is just the beginning of the severity of sin convo .. of which I have already given a number of examples .. you didn't manage to address the fact that regardless of what that sin is .. your version or mine .. this is still severity of sin ..along with the other examples given.

The sheep/goats parable .. where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats - he does so on the basis of works. Matt 25

In the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7 Jesus talks about works.. works .. and more works - these things being "The will of the Father"

He then finishes with "Not all those who call Lord Lord" aka the faith crowd - "make it through the pearly gates" .. but "Only those that do the will of the Father"

and no .. you don't get to make up what you think the will of the father is . .. usurping the position of the Logos - Jesus tells us what that will is in this sermon. Says is the doers of the word who are justified in the eyes of the the Most High - not the hearers who do nothing . not the "Faith alone" crowd.

James 2 echos these comments of Jesus calling the Christians at the time who were professing the faith alone doctrine Foolish.

There is a reason why the majority of Christianity does not accept Sola Fide - for you to just throw that in at the end .. with no backup is .. well .. back up what you say.

 

Well, its easy to argue the belief in christinaity is simply a grave misunderstanding of the religion it borrowed from and what the messianic concept of Judiasm is all about. Judaic messianism has nothing to do with sin

As for sin, I cant speak for non jews but Jews atone for their sins on the 10th day of the 7th month each year, Its called Yom Kippur - Day of atonement. If you look in Leviticus, God tells Israel that this day to atone for sins is an "everlasting" requirement. He doesnt say "Do this until your savior arrives" He speciifes "everlasting". Last time I checked, "everlasting" means "Lasting forever"

Ofcourse, its possible the God of Abe could have been joking around.

 

Reality at any one instant may be the selection from among likely alternative possibilities available as indeterminate precursors (subjective states). The selection must not be random or haphazard, else reality would be helter-skelter and full of conflict and contradiction instead of consistent and logical. In quantum physics, the change is from subjective to objective. We don't yet have any insight on how the selection/choice is controlled.

 

Religious dogma has been described by some as a reasoned product given the status of formality.

..."stew in your imperfection for eternity"... and ".just relaying to you the facts" i.e the facts from the Bible's point of view. You're welcome to it. Other viewpoints such as from Buddhism don't impose such "facts."

 

Testing requires stuff like controls, selection criteria for subjects tested, repeatability by independent groups, etc.

I know stories concerning those who believe something special happened. How to turn that into science is something else.

Worse than that, if the thought is that God is involved in any way then his participation or lack of participation is something untestable on its own. I don't believe that a God who states that he must be accepted on faith alone would decide to allow humans to test him.

That is, Gods test men. Men don't test God.[/QUOTE]

There are those who become believers after experiencing a personal intuitive contact with God, after which they "know God" and so on. I consider the perception of those who personally experience NDE/OBE incidences of floating up to the ceiling just as valid. Dismissing them because they don't rate as much as scientific testing seems like a rather sterile and self-limiting exclusiveness.

 

"... we have very sound scientific data, well over 1300 experiments, that show that the human mind can do things that a human brain can't conceivably do." Body Mind Spirit, Charles T. Tart, Chapter 11, page 177.

Chapter 8 (William Braud) pages 142-143: "...research...has demonstrated that persons are able to influence the bodily systems of other persons, mentally and at a distance....For example, we have conducted a long and extensive research program in which we found that persons are able to increase and decrease the autonomic nervous system activity of other persons, mentally and at a distance....influence the distant persons electrodermal activity according to a random schedule unknown to the person being influenced....procedure computer controlled....measurements scored objectively by computer....also found preliminary indications that persons are able to 'block' unwanted influences upon their own physiological systems through their own interfering intentions and imagery."

 

and Buddhism says you are your own god....have at it!

 

Yes, the very fundamentals of science include that mankind knows so little that proving theories to be true is not possible. There is always the possibility that there are factors not yet understood or even detected, yet so significant as to cause false conclusions.

Having an organized way of handling that lack of perfection is perhaps the central success of science.

 

Please cite these studies.

That has to come before stories about the studies.

 

Good point!
That is exactly one of the points that I never understood.

 

Well, there is no chance that humans could figure out God's reasons for taking various actions.

But, surely it would be a FAR more difficult question to answer if he had created us as perfect followers.

 

Well yeah, if we were perfect followers, we wouldn't be questioning at all!

 

!! True! But I'm really more thinking that creation of bots that are perfect followers seems harder to justify simply on the basis of the boring nature of the exercise.