A Very American Coup

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...rump-presidency-coup-power-election-joe-biden

Very interesting article on how Trump plans to take a second term.

On the one hand we have an extremely narcissistic (some would say to the extent of mental illness) President of the USA who doesn't like the fact that he has clearly lost an election. To an extreme Narcissist losing is the very worse thing that can happen to them and they will resist this with denial, false accusations and any means at their disposal whatsoever, subject to them being restrained. The mental torture that a narcissist suffers from rejection and losing should not be underestimated. They will use all their powers to resist such an outcome. Trump has a base which controls the US Republican Party and so even though Republicans who loathed him (Cruz, Graham, Rubio, Christie) have long since given in to sycophancy at the Court of the King, they will do his bidding or lose their place at this Court and the Court of his eventual Successor.

Then we have a US election which is done on the basis of a Electoral College - where States elect Presidential Electors to decide who the President should be. Strictly speaking this is characterised by two things:

1. It is not necessarily the case the the Electors will be chosen by "the people". They are chosen by the States. Historically this has been done on the basis of the popular vote within each State with a winner takes all approach (except for Maine and Nebraska who spread it a bit). But it is at least arguable that there could be other ways of selecting these Electors under the Constitution. It could be done by the Governor of the State or the Legislatures of the State (State Houses of Representatives and Senates). The legality of each approach is cloudy, particularly if an election is disrupted to the extent where it is "doubtful" who has won it and it could go "all the way to the Supreme Court" if a method other than popular vote somehow emerges.

2. Because (for some reasons that other democracies do not share) counting ALL votes in the USA can take weeks and actually does take weeks. So there is a practical problem knowing who has won until the States formally declare their slate of electors. For this reason a tradition has grown in the USA of media outlets (the "Networks") calling elections rather than Election Officials. The tradition has been for these media outlets to employ serious psephologists and political scientists who will "call" each state based on partial vote counts for every State. This is done where these experts regard it as statistically highly unlikely that this call will be wrong. In general these calls have been accepted by candidates as if they are equivalent to State certifications which they are not. This isn't because they don't understand the Constitution. It is for practical purposes so that the election can be resolved and a transition started. The "call" is always proved right by the formal "constitutional" certification process and in modern times it has always been accompanied by a "concession" by the loser: again a procedure that has no "constitutional" role. It is a practical compromise which doesn't override 1. but allows everyone to move on with a highly probable estimate of the outcome of 1.. It's a deal, that always gets done between the parties. Except this time.

What happened specially in 2020 was as follows:

a. In the run up to the election the President declared that he would win and that any result that said otherwise would be fraudulent. He claimed that there would be considerable efforts by his opponent to fraudulently steal the election and that it would be impossible for him to lose.

b. The President announced that one of his achievements was 3 appointments to the Supreme Court of the USA (SCOTUS) and that the latest would be necessary as SCOTUS would be needed to resolve or overrule the fraudulent election result.

c. The President announced that absentee ballots (postal voting) which were likely to be very large in this election were being used as a cover for fraud. He strongly discouraged his base from using this method.

d. Some legislatures, notably Pennsylvania, which were controlled by Republicans, ensured that despite there being millions of absentee ballots more than before, and despite the complex process of matching such ballots to voter ID and signatures, counting absentee ballots could not take place ahead of time and should take place after the counting of the votes cast on the day.

e. As more Democrats were expected to vote by absentee ballots and more Republicans to vote on the day, this resulted in forecasts of a "red mirage" which would be Republican votes being counted first and giving the impression of significant Republican success, followed by a Blue Wave as the Democratic votes from absentee ballots caught up and perhaps overtook the Republican votes. As most states allowed such ballots to be counted ahead of time (ie Florida), it was foreseen that this scenario would be mainly in States like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, all swing states that the Democrats had to flip. The President and his supporters began to allege ahead of the election that these States would have fraudulent ballots and that dark things happened with electoral politics in the (largely African American) cities of these states.

f. The election happened largely as predicted except the final results were closer than ever before with the States of Georgia, Wisconsin, Arizona and Pennsylvania all victories for the Dems with less than 1% margins.

g. On the night of the election, when he was ahead in many States as had been predicted, Trump called for absentee ballots to stop being counted because he had "won", even though millions of ballots were yet to be counted. He actually called for "voting to stop" but as that was nonsensical because all voting had stopped, this was clearly a call for counting to stop. Bizarrely his supporters, whose understanding of facts and truth tends to be "whatever the president says", descended on poll counts where public servants were tallying votes, some armed with assault rifles, chanting "Stop the Count" in Pennsylvania and Michigan and "Count all the Votes" in Arizona where a long tradition of voting by post meant that the Democrats were ahead and Trump was actually catching up. Clearly the tactics of the POTUS were opportunistic here rather than principled!

h. Interestingly the position of Trump just before the election was that the election should be called that night. He was very clear about this. His justification was "as it always has been", thereby proposing that the networks should call the result based on partial counts on election night, as they always had. He then argued that absentee ballots were part of a fraud scam: they were (it seems he was saying all of them) illegal votes, and that only votes that could be counted had to be counted before "four o clock in the morning" at the latest and that the election should be called before that time. Thus he urged the networks to call the election based on a very incomplete partial count. (This strongly contrasts with the later position of the POTUS that you should take as long as it takes to resolve the election in accordance with the Constitution - again there was no principle involved here, only opportunism).

i. The President started to launch legal challenges most of which were dismissed out of hand by judges, judges often who had been appointed unanimously by the Senate or by conservative Presidents. These challenges fell into two main camps: the majority were objections to tiny numbers of ballots on the basis that they were fraudulent or did not follow the rules and a few were grandiose sweeping cases such as that absentee ballots, as they used a different method of counting, were unconstitutional and should be entirely removed from the vote count (actually Trump's election night position). Judges dismissed cases based on hearsay and complete lack of evidence, over and over again. People (poll workers) who had been pressured into making allegations of fraud, withdrew them when serious investigators interrogated them. Reports of Republican bribing people to make allegations were made. The Lieutenant Governor of Texas put up a reward of $1m for evidence of fraud. In the absence of evidence the GOP were prepared to buy it. The problem was that they could find no evidence but the President - loyally supported by sycophants from his own party in hock to the "base" - was making so many allegations that millions of his supporters immediately believed these allegations to be true. The fact that the POTUS had been ahead and then Biden caught up was evidence enough for these type of people - they did not need to think any deeper. The King had spoken. They followed.

j. Democrats were extremely complacent at this point because even if they could see what was happening they had always failed to understand how much the USA had changed and how little tens of millions of Americans now supported democratic norms, multi-party elections and the concept that the true character of a free country is defined by how a Head of State leaves office rather than is elected to it. They failed, in their bubbles, to see what was happening before their eyes. They said the POTUS was powerless to change the fact that Biden had won and he would have to leave office. They laughed at the President. Even when he replaced officials at the Department of Defence who had objected to Trump wanting to use the US military against American protestors on American streets. They laughed when the Secretary of State talked of an orderly transition to a second Trump term and said he was "joking".

k. The Vice President, the Secretary of State, many key Senators, the Leader of the House all lined up behind Trump. The GOP leaders of the Pennsylvania Legislature, who had always said that they would never determine the POTUS Electors, began to backtrack, suggesting that maybe there was fraud, despite no evidence of significant or even any fraud being found. The strategy of the POTUS was to throw enough mud that some of it would stick. Results would be discredited and other means of selecting electors would need to be found. Allegations were made online, and then forgotten as they were debunked, with new allegations taking their place. the "base' made it clear that it supported trump. Slowly, GOP politicians who privately were ecstatic (the Leader of the Senate) that Trump had lost began to get onside. The voices of GOP politicians supporting the traditional way of transitioning power were few and far between, confined mainly to GOP representatives in highly liberal States. The Republican Party was not accepting the election results and was starting to openly and explicitly propose options such as overriding the popular will in the Electoral College.

k. A scenario emerges as follows (i) recounts are organised in Arizona, Wisconsin and Georgia where the GOP is organised with polls watchers who will actively disrupt this process. Republican officials in these States who are concerned with the count will be influenced by the groundswell insistence of the GOP that the Democrats have committed widespread fraud, to facilitate or get out of the way of these obstructors. The goal will be to flip the count back to the GOP or given the difficulty of that to cast so much doubt on the result that the legislatures of these States will go on to select the Electors (ii) the Legislatures of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, will declare that their States were subject to massive electoral fraud (on the Trunmpian standard of evidence that has been carefully nurtured over four years that "there are widespread reports") and they will select GOP Electors. This has been explicitly called for by the Governor of Florida, a State where the Democrats consistently underestimated the propensity of millions of people to vote for right wing extremists like De Santis and Trump. (iii) as a result of (i) and/or (ii), the Electoral College will confirm Trump as a reelected POTUS. The GOP are on board in using all means necessary, fair or mould, to protect the fragile ego of the POTUS and keep him in office against the democratically elected will of the people. They will say a lot: "The USA is a Republic not a Democracy"

l. The final piece: the Challenge by Biden to SCOTUS (it will not be the other way round) will see the Democrats argue that (a) the popular vote should prevail or failing that (b) the Democratic Governors of PA, MI and WI should certify the Electors not the GOP Legislatures. SCOTUS will vote 5-4 (Roberts will join the liberals) to reject that and Donald Trump will have completed the coup d'etat whereby he got the election results of the 2020 POTUS election set aside without any evidence of significant fraud ever having been accepted by a court. SCOTUS will not make a ruling on bogus allegations of fraud as none will be presented to it. That will be achieved politically in the GOP controlled legislatures as only empty accusations can be. As is being called for now by GOP politicians.

The process by which the GOP rigs the Electoral College has been carefully planned and executed by Trump and his followers. From the rigging of the Court, the priming of the base with predictable lies and phone court cases, the intimidation of GOP leaders to fall in line, even in State Legislatures.... it has all gone to plan. Democrats will be gasping in horror that they did not see this coming and that they underestimated Trump once again.

 

We can only hope.

 

The thing is, any such coup would be closely observed by the whole world, much of which has already accepted Biden as the new prez of the US.

Blimey, after witnessing all this carry on, even those fools in HK who wish to overthrow Chinese sovereignty over the island, might have second thoughts about 'democracy'...

 

The opinions of the world are irrelevant. The Leader is motivated only by what works for him. For his supporters the opprobrium of the World would be a bonus.

Of course!

Boris Johnson will be scuttling back and eating dust as he kisses Trump's feet!

Not sure what the flamebait about HK is for so I'll ignore it. Looks like an attempt top derail the thread before it starts.

 

fear-mongering , he’s toast

 

Only the last three paragraphs haven't yet happened - although even here the plans to do this have been openly revealed. De Santis is already calling for the GOP to bypass the will of the people in PA, GA and WI. That's a US State Governor urging the destruction of the Modern Republic onto his willing partner. This is the American Counter Revolution unfolding before our eyes. Of course this should make people fearful - that the USA is to become a pariah nation, equivalent to modern Russia. Europe is certainly too weak to balance out the loss of the USA to the forces of tyranny. It is to be deeply feared and resisted. But that I am trying to create fear does not diminish the likelihood of this happening. 45% of Americans have voted to support or tolerate an extremist like Trump. That US liberals airily ignore this reality, which is much more than four years old, is why it is happening in the first place.

 

there is no way Trump is gonna steal this election, he may try, but he will fail at that like he does at everything else

 

Irrelevant? Pompeo has been rushing around the globe trying to gain support for his anti China stance (to maintain US global hegemony) ,.... so he obviously doesn't agree with you.

Anyway, "America First" is thoroughly discredited, what with tariffs and sanctions imposed on foe and ally alike...and meanwhile US trade deficits are continuing to grow. Your fantasy of maintaining US global hegemony is dying.

[QUOTE}Boris Johnson will be scuttling back and eating dust as he kisses Trump's feet![/QUOTE]

I'll get back in touch with you on Dec.18th to check that theory........post #4...

The point is: get your own house in order.

China will grow faster than the US in the next decade, simply because "socialism with Chinese characteristics" - which includes a role for private enterprise (unlike the USSR) - can single-mindedly create and achieve its five-year plans via funding via its public (national) bank, in contrast to the US with its blind-leading-the-blind adversarial, insanely hyper-partisan two party 'democracy'- funded by private banksters - which either reverses the policies of the other party at the next election or more often results in stalemate.

And sadly for you, a nation that cannot engender BOTH fairness and freedom, will fail.

BTW, China has officially eradicated absolute poverty this year, and from now on it's all cream for the population who are becoming increasingly satisfied with their government.

 

I could absolutely see Trump trying to get a Republican controlled legislature to ignore the will of the people and send Republican electors instead of Democratic, but I doubt any Republican state legislator would have the courage to do it. People would be furious and any state legislator would never be able to walk around in public again. There are crazy people on the left just like the crazy people on the right, and one of those crazy people would target the state legislators who tried it regardless of whether the Constitution gives them the power to do it.

 

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...n-through-fraud.580831/page-2#post-1072208627


How the election was stolen is explained here:



We can win this for America. Rudy Giuliani with Sebastian Gorka on AMERICA First




But it really was all those extra Trump votes on November 3 that put the Dems into a situation where they had to resort to drastic measures that cannot be hidden.




We found crimes. Rudy Giuliani on AMERICA First | Sebastian Gorka Radio

 

I am sure people like Pompey will try to continue American global hegemony, and will employ aggressive threats and engage in culture wars within Europe as they have always done. They will make temporary progress with Hungary Poland and Turkey. But serious political operatives in Europe are already (finally!) realising that establishing European leadership in the world, and a multi-polar West, is absolutely essential in the next twenty years. The lack of an American comfort blanket may make Europe grow into something.

You don't seem to understand this subject very well. It is a very big and complex subject that cannot be so glibly summarized. There is a lot of structural weakness, politically, economically and in businesses a result of explosive Chinese growth. The US still has the best business culture in the world by far - with strong leaders empowering their organisations to deliver innovation and growth in a way that a "boss" oriented culture cannot. Five year plans did not build China - it was cheap labour, foreign investment, increasing demand from the West, entrepreneurial business people and a migrants workforce ten times hungrier for a new life than their English antecedents in that Industrial Revolution. Thanks to Deng Xiao Peng and Zhao Ziyang opening the door. Of course in a quarter of the world there can be a lot going on - some things crashing and burning and other things emerging and growing. Hong Kong has just seen the end of one country two systems - it's now one country one system. You can't speak freely now in case something is twisted now to be interpreted as "unpatriotic". There were very few who opposed China's sovereignty. But the majority (60%), very recently, voted to defend their democratic freedoms, which now have largely been taken away. China is a feudal country with Chinese characteristics attempting to retain feudal power structures (Emperor, unaccountable aristocrats and mandarins) whilst harnessing an Industrial Revolution. That's a Marxist analysis. A liberal China would dominate the world, due to its sheer size. That's Marxist too. Chinese managers using a US business model would create incredible progress. That's straight out of the Communist Manifesto. Many Chinese businesses have incredible leaders but this is not encouraged by a culture to "never challenge" (feudalism). Xi is trying something other than a bourgeois revolution to get the same result. I am sure there will be a lot going on. America's demise is much easier to predict than what will happen in China.

 

This video explains how Trump could legally remain President.
from around 7.30m



He believes it would only happen if there was not too much difference in the vote which there is not. Republicans are already walking step by step with Trump. I don't think there is anything to suggest they would not allow it. We have on this very thread one person hoping for it who has been liked for that thought.

It is a horrendous thought but it appears not without possibility and Trump is certainly acting as if that is what he is going for.

 

So here's the thing. The Guardian article doesn't actually consider the veracity of the evidence. For example, just one mind you, that has happened. In GA, something like 27000 folks over the age of 90 voted. That's something like a 10X out perform for their demographic. No explanation or empirical example before this election. I'm not discounting that folks over 90 vote. They can, and do. But the out performance, and specifically their out performance for Biden is entirely unprecedented. What will likely be discovered, is that (as has been speculated) that many of these folks were in care facilities, and are't aware that they voted. And yet, those ballots are in the mix. And your guardian article seems unwilling to document that lots of these specific kinds of irregular anomalies have been noted.

If one didn't know better, many of us the US might consider that the Guardian was (as a foreign entity) being used to try to effect an US election. Casting fear, or distrust of, the election process. Why do you suppose that it is proper, or even moral for the Guardian to have submitted this article that you've pasted in?

The very disturbing thing is that the lengthy wall of text you pasted in doesn't actually understand the constitutional law in this country. The truth of the matter is that its essentially a crafted narrative that ignores said constitutional cures for exactly this kid of outcome, and frankly doesn't mention them.

So, when sufficient voter fraud from mail in (these are not actually absentee ballots mind you that have to be verified by the states) ballots will get the scrutiny that they need, and places like PA, WI, MI, and now GA will be required to recount, and then verify the veracity of the stack of ballots. And, should irregularities, (like the assertion that in GA again, 98000 ballots were cast but only the presidential race was voted, those ballots will receive some scrutiny. Folks who vote don't vote that way. Historic evidence suggests this. There are cures. but perhaps these cures aren't palatable to British liberals. gosh, the irony of that...

So, the real observation here is that a British tabloid has decided to throw their weight and credibility in the ring, absent any standing or citizenship in the United States, and you posted it. What an interesting set of facts.

 

As one who does not respect Trump, who did not vote for him, it does appear there is ample evidence of highly irregular events regarding ballots. That is to say, it is not clear that Biden has won anything, if the rules are honored.

 

On this note, I am often told that Republicans have a superior news media apparatus at their disposal to shape public opinion and manage perceptions in the nation. No doubt it is robust and moneyed well, but I see their machine getting whipsawed by its opposition. You are likely correct that any scenario whereby Democrats lose the executive would be met by widespread unrest. Is this not a testament to the power of news media which favors a Democratic agenda?

To ask more clearly, has news media successfully framed a Biden defeat in such a way that it would be guaranteed to trigger mass violence? This is an appeal to elitism and a devaluation of the people, but elites seem to inform public opinion to a greater degree than is desirable imo, and I mark this up to messaging which frames every political dispute as a "war" or a "battle" or a "fight" or a "life and death" issue. It stimulates anger which translates to unconventional forms of political engagement which manifests as activism and protest and community nationalism and so on.

 

Hilarious. Two idiots without one functioning mind between the,

The right-wing media is far superior in its ability to shape its followers' perceptions of reality. Conservative radio alone is unparalleled. The left doesn't have a Rush Limburgh or anyone like him.

It is important to remember most Americans are not Constitutional scholars and when they see a candidate win an election despite garnering millions fewer votes, it puts the election into question. Relatively few people understand that the state legislatures could defy the will of the people and send the other party's electors to vote, and such an act would be widely regarded as illegal and blatant theft of an election. It is also important to remember, Pennsylvania is one of those places where Trump lost the state, but the legislature is majority Republican. If the legislature sent Republican electors, I would absolutely see widespread unrest. Remember, the good people of Philadelphia beat up Santa Clause at one point.

 

You may not like him, but 70 Million people believe he did not fail at everything..
If not the virus Trump would win by far

 

You believe the rules are not honored ?

 

Let's keep doing recounts. It allows me to experience the glory of victory over and over. The same way as a Giant fan I never tire of watching the ball sail wide right. Watch the ball as many times as you like Joe Biden is Superbowl champion. https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...=85c347aa20cdc9bac7fd55f42cac401b&action=view

 

At what point are the electors officially chosen, before or after there is a clear winner? At what point is a clear winner determined?

 

1000's of years ago, Trump could have started a new religion, he has a way with his believers believing his nonsense

 

I very seldom listen to him speak, his style drives me crazy. I voted for him because of what he promised to do and I voted for him this time because he worked on those promises and needs and deserves more time at it. the one area I might question is Obamacare. It's a horrible program but it's in place now and should stay in place and be adjusted so it works better. Other than that I really like what he has done. Now this doesn't mean jack on the national stage but I thought someone should tell you that it is nonsense to believe he is a cult or we are all religious fanatics over here on the right. I believe Obamacare is safe.

 

It is strange the way he is managing to manipulate so many American Politicians to be basically traitors to their country. I doubt if it is Trump on his own.

 

What treason are they committing?

 

They are maliciously and I am sure with full knowledge trying to deceive the people of the US and keep their man in power rather than the one the people voted for. Further some of them are bribing people to make false statements to try and make this so. It is as people have been calling it an attempted coup. What is the US punishment for this?