There is absolutely nothing "anti Semitic" about refuting bigoted anti German slander with irrefutable facts and basic physical realities. Howling "anti Semite" in an attempt to silence honest and objective discussion is such an old ruse that Shulamit Aloni calls it "The Trick" EXCERPTS "“Well, it’s a trick, we always use it. When from Europe somebody is criticizing Israel, then we bring up the Holocaust. When in this country people are criticizing Israel, then they are anti-Semitic..... And it’s very easy to blame people who criticize certain acts of the Israeli government as anti-Semitic, and to bring up the Holocaust, and the suffering of the Jewish people, and that is to justify everything we do to the Palestinians.”CONTINUED Shulamit Aloni https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1906/S00076/dont-be-caught-out-by-the-trick.htm The horrific carnage of WW 2 and especially after devastated people of all religions, races and ethnic backgrounds. To suggest that the suffering of any one group of people was somehow more profound because of of their religious or ethnic background seems to be significantly repulsive and racist. As you have probably noticed, I have contributed a significant number of Posts to this thread just as I have lived with, worked with and known dozens of holocaust survivors, WW 2 Veterans from several armies and German WW 2 survivors of Allied firebombing, Communist atrocities etc. Finally, if you chose to discuss this topic further, I promise to do so with civility and respect. Thanks,
Soon I'm going cross-eyed! Having spent hours reading and searching, falling asleep in-between and trying to make sense out of things. Markus Tiedemann caught my attention with his book titled "In Auschwitz wurde niemand vergast". I even found an excerpt in English... https://remember.org/ideas/kz -------------- Remembering an incident from my childhood: In February 1945 I had to show up at a school in the next town to get registered for the BDM = Bund Deutscher Maedchen. April 1st it would start. The official told us, we had to show up or our parents would have to go to a KZ Lager = Konzentrationslager or pay 150 German Marks penalty! I was sufficiently scared as I didn't know what a KZ was like. So, as soon as I got home I related to my mother what I had been told. She didn't seem to take it serious and smiled. Now, of course, I can see what she was thinking.... the war will be over very soon. But this scenario shows how fanatical some German officials could be. Or maybe, he acted his part to save his own skin? To finish the story,.... Low and behold, I did receive notice later to show up at the market place in the nearby town at 2pm on ? of April. My mother came with me, we looked around. Nobody showed up! We biked home again and that was it, never heard another word! A month later the war was over!!! Reason I'm making this detour through my childhood is, it got into my head that a few German fanatics in a power position could cause quite some misery for KZ inmates, for instance. Big hug to you, dear Grau, und please, don't take my civility joke too serious.... all I am trying to do is to discharge the accumulated ions to release some built-up pressure! Happy to be still alive and able to "express" myself!
Sorry, I disagree. You have no irrefutable facts or basic physical realities compared to the huge amount of credible evidence — government documents, thousands of eyewitness testimonies, firsthand admissions of guilt, photographs, film footage, meticulous written records, museums’ worth of artifacts, not to mention the remains of the concentration camps, gas chambers and crematoria themselves. I don't wish to discuss your grossly distorted and erroneous views as I find them absolutely disgusting. I will turn what you said around a bit -- it is absolutely antisemitic to post bigoted anti-Jewish slander when there are no irrefutable facts and or basic realities that support your conspiracy theory crap. Trivializing the Nazi genocide and/or distorting the Holocaust is highly offensive to Jewish people as well as non-Jewish people. https://www.auschwitz.org/en/history/holocaust-denial/deniers-in-different-countries/ https://holocaustlearning.org.uk/latest/holocaust-myth-busting-challenging-the-misconceptions/ https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/01/1110202 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial https://www.ushmm.org/m/pdfs/USHMM-Holocaust-Narrative-Photos.pdf The Holocaust was the systematic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million European Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators in the years leading up to and during World War II. During the era of the Holocaust (1933-1945), German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived “racial inferiority”: Roma, people with disabilities, some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others), and Black people . Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, men who were accused of “homosexuality,” and people whom the regime identified as “asocials” and “professional criminals.”
I'm glad that you're still alive and able to express yourself too. It's rather revealing. that the influential and fraudulent Holocaust Industry (1), (2) has desperately managed to repress open and honest discussion of the holocaust in about 16 so-called democracies around the world. I can't understand how any thinking person could believe the outrageous and profitable fables marketed by a virtual industry that has repeatedly been caught defrauding multiple governments and entities with such obscene and grisly lies. There's nothing that holocaust hucksters fear more than a calm, honest, open and factual discussion about the Holocaust Industry's profitable "product". Also, thanks for your wartime childhood story. I believe that you are the only person at this forum who was actually alive in Germany during WW 2 so your memories, however painful, are especially important to this topic. Re: I'm afraid you've found just another lying junk site like so many that sully the internet with residual Allied propaganda and Holocaust Industry lies. I'm still amazed at the number of professionally deceived people who think that only the "other" side used / uses propaganda. Instead, please take a look at: http://www.wearswar.com/ for more honest, well documented and objective information about this tragic and widely misunderstood era. Finally, I was amused by your civility cartoon but still feel that civility is essential in the honest and productive discussion of such serious and volatile topics like the one at hand. Best wishes, (1)"17 CHARGED IN $42 MILLION HOLOCAUST FRAUD CASE" http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40093058/...ed-million-holocaust-fraud-case/#.XU62pSMwi_U EXCERPT "Federal prosecutors said Tuesday they have broken up a long-running scam in which people falsely claimed to be victims of the Nazi persecution so they could get money out of a fund that pays Holocaust reparations."CONTINUED (2) "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION" http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298 EXCERPT "For over a decade, a criminal ring within the organization embezzled tens of millions of dollars through false restitution claims.”CONTINUED
Re: You're only admitting that you cannot refute any of the facts I've both written and supported throughout this thread that debunk the "product" marketed by the proven fraudulent Holocaust Industry. All you are relying on is Shulamit Aloni's rhetorical "Trick"; simply howl "anti Semite" when the facts are against you. First, how could there have been a "genocide" against all of Europe's Jews when Jews were both high ranking members of the National Socialist Party(1) and members of Germany's WW 2 military?(2) No one I know denies that some Jews were among the other religious / ethnic groups who were arrested and placed in work camps. Germany's system of work camps were little different than prison systems in other countries. They were primarily for common criminals such as murderers, rapists, pedophiles, thieves, traitors, Communists etc. There were no homicidal gas, steam or electrocution chambers(3). Those were simply inconsistent and contradictory propaganda lies told by dishonest inmates and trumpeted by the Holocaust Industry to blackmail, slander and demoralize the German people. There are, of course numerous eyewitnesses who lie about homicidal gas chambers but even though their lies are either inconsistent, physically impossible or contradictory, the Holocaust Industry markets them to heighten the shock effect of their grisly, taxpayer funded theme parks like USHMM. Anyone telling the truth about homicidal gas chambers is, at best, ignored but usually threatened and / or punished. The following are just two truthful accounts that are among the countless ones that are heavily repressed by the fraudulent Holocaust Industry: - EXCERPT " An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced laborer. On the train journey to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz. Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads." CONTINUED (4) - EXCERPT " A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of gas chambers during the time she was interned there. She heard the gassing stories only later." CONTINUED (4) Not a single homicidal gas chamber exists or existed. That, too, is a notorious propaganda lie(5). Finally, it takes only common sense to see through the homicidal gas chamber lie. If "millions" were murdered in this manner, then there would have been hundreds of homicidal gas chambers throughout the former 3rd Reich yet not one exists or existed nor is there a single photo, work order, blueprint or maintenance request. The only type of gas chambers were the smaller rooms used for killing lice in old clothes, blankets etc. Please note that there is nothing "anti Semitic" about facts that debunk the standard holocaust narrative. Thanks, (1) “List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent EXCERPT “Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of full and partial Jewish descent. “ CONTINUED (2) “Hitler’s Jewish Army” http://counterpsyops.com/2013/02/14/...-hitlers-army/ EXCERPT “Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval. In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded(*)Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross. Jews also served in the Nazi police and security forces as ghetto police(Ordnungdienst)(*)and concentration camp guards(*)(kapos). So what happens to the claim that Hitler sought to exterminate all Jews, when he allowed some of them to join in his struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism? “If the Jews were permitted to serve in Hitler’s armed forces then there could not have been a Holocaust.”CONTINUED (3) "Auschwitz Electrical Conveyor belt of Death" https://disjecta.wordpress.com/2018/01/26/auschwitz-electrical-conveyor-belt-of-death/ EXCERPT "It’s a little known fact that running alongside the scientifically implausible gas chambers at Auschwitz ran the electrified conveyor belts of death. These industrialised slaughter belts, we can assume took the passive cargo directly from the “cattle cars” and electrocuted the hapless victims without struggle then disposed of the evidence in Nazi furnaces. One can only guess at the “special devices” for killing children. Somehow visions of Willy Wonka’s Chocolate/extermination factory spring to mind."CONTINUED (4) "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts" http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml (5) “Auschwitz: Myths and Facts” http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml EXCERPT “Allied Propaganda The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any actual signs of extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about gassings at Auschwitz were widespread. Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast to Europe by Allied radio stations. [15] CONTINUED 15. Nuremberg document NI-11696. NMT "green series," Vol. 8, p. 606.
Holocaust denial and distortion is the dismissal of irrefutable and established facts that Holocaust happened. It belittles the suffering of the victims and survivors of the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis. Holocaust denial and distortion are a form of hate speech that dehumanize the victims and survivors and aims to question and justify the acts.
Repeatedly chanting the same false holocaustian script in large red font doesn't make your factually flawed opinion true. All you've done is to show that you cannot refute a single fact I've written and supported that expose the fraudulent Holocaust Industry's standard narrative as false. It may surprise you to know that most of the world does not believe the fraudulent yet profitable fodder(1) churned out by Hollywood(2) and the corrupt Holocaust Industry. As far as your "irrefutable and established facts", you should now that: “Investigations of physical evidence and original documentation, however, have cast doubts on the Holocaust narrative that has been formed. For example, areas claimed to be mass graves, have been found with modern investigative technology to contain no human remains. Testimonies of accused perpetrators show evidence of outright fabrication, or were obtained through torture. Many of the supposed eyewitnesses have provided stories riddled by inconsistencies, describe physically impossible events, or were even total frauds who were never actually in the camps.”(2) You are free to embrace unsupportable holocaust cult mythology and physically impossible holocaustian stories but please don't project your irrational anti German hatred onto the billions of people who reject the fantasies you've chosen to embrace. Facts matter. Thanks, (1) ”THE WORLD IS FULL OF HOLOCAUST DENIERS” https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...he-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/ EXCERPT “Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts. Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth. Thirty percent of respondents said it's probably true that "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust." - Hindus were most likely to believe that the number of Holocaust deaths has been exaggerated. - people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted”CONTINUED (2) “The Director of the Holocau$t - Khazar Expatriate Billy Wilder” https://archive.org/details/TheDirectorOfTheHolocaut-KhazarExpatriateBillyWilder EXCERPT “Almost all the films you've ever seen of the Holocaust were staged. Using Allied propaganda as a rough script, directors from Hollywood were shipped to Germany and Poland to direct propaganda films for post-war use. One of the most notable of these was Billy Wilder, director of meny very well known films, such as "Some Like It Hot" with Marilyn Monroe." CONTINUED
I was hoping for a more substantial response in your own words to the facts that I've written and supported than a canned cliche' and 2 Holocaust Industry produced You-tubes. Because the facts I've researched, written and supported refute so much of the standard holocaust narrative I thought that you would have more to say. Any rational person can articulate their arguments and refute opposing views in their own words. Regrettably, the holocaust has, for many, become an article of blind faith or rather an unsupportable cult belief one needs to believe to satisfy some emotional need. So, please attempt to refute, in your own words, the facts I have related that demonstrate the standard holocaust narrative to be false. This is a debate forum, after after all. Thanks,
Nope, you and 2 1/2 other HC denies here try to distort history. I think that doesn't has to bother me. Free speech is more important! I did that many years ago and even today, if i have patience. Why you're lying again? Hitler ordered the murder of disabled Germans: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-murder-of-people-with-disabilities Even most HC deniers don't doubt that.
I think you're right. It's merely an attempt of some fake-Germans to "correct" German history. Transforming Nazi criminals into good boys is IMHO their main goal.
You continue to prove that you know nothing about Hitler, WW 2 and the holocaust except what the fraudulent Holocaust Industry(1), (2) and Hollywood pours into your head. I have tried to be civil with you but your repeated accusations of "lying" and "anti Semitism" are typical to the sort of intellectually challenged individual who would continue to believe anything and everything churned out by Holocaust Industry hucksters that have been proven of operating a "...long-running scam in which people falsely claimed to be victims of the Nazi persecution so they could get money" and making: "...false restitution claims" What part of "long running scam" and "false restitution claims" are you incapable of understanding? You even believed the "human skin lampshade" lie without ever stopping to think if it was true or even possible so it's no surprise that you would blindly believe that tens of thousands of people could be organized, "herded", gassed, hauled out, cremated and had their bones and teeth pulverized in one day using one small room. The people naive enough to believe the mass gassing myth have never attempted to drag or carry even one dead body. I'll bet you even believe Moshe Peer's sort about surviving 6 mass gassings. Re: Where is the copy of the written order? All I know is that Hitler ordered an end to Germany's euthanasia program(3) in 1941 while it continued in other countries. Hitler may have known and approved of Germany's euthanasia program but unless you can produce a legitimate copy of the order, you're the one that's lying as you have so frequently throughout this thread. (1) "17 CHARGED IN $42 MILLION HOLOCAUST FRAUD CASE" http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40093058/...ed-million-holocaust-fraud-case/#.XU62pSMwi_U EXCERPT "Federal prosecutors said Tuesday they have broken up a long-running scam in which people falsely claimed to be victims of the Nazi persecution so they could get money out of a fund that pays Holocaust reparations."CONTINUED (2) "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION" http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298 EXCERPT "For over a decade, a criminal ring within the organization embezzled tens of millions of dollars through false restitution claims.”CONTINUED (3) "Hitler suspends euthanasia program" https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/hitler-suspends-euthanasia-program EXCERPT "Adolf Hitler orders that the systematic murder of the mentally ill and handicapped be brought to an end because of protests within Germany on August 18, 1941." CONTINUED
Holocaust denial and distortion is the dismissal of irrefutable and established facts that Holocaust happened. It belittles the suffering of the victims and survivors of the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis. Holocaust denial and distortion are a form of hate speech that dehumanize the victims and survivors and aims to question and justify the acts.
Please look here, Nuremberg court document PS #630: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...kument_PS-630_-_datiert_1._September_1939.jpg Usual humans call it mass murder, but Hitler and his Nazi criminals name it "Gnadentod" (merciful death). Anti-Zionism isn't anti-Semitism and German citizens can indeed be of Polish descent. There's no contradiction. Nazis's definition what makes a real German is no longer valid. Ancestry doesn't matter here. If you like the German people, you won't call them back to the evil Hitler way by denying the Holocaust.
MORE ANTI GERMAN SLANDER Air photo evidence proves that if there was a massacre, it didn't happen at the Babi Yar ravine. It is no secret that the Germans dealt harshly with ruthless and illegal Communist partisans who murdered, dismembered and physically mutilated countless German soldiers(1) "What Happened at Babi Yar? Fact vs. Myth” http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/BabiYar/Nikiforuk.html EXCERPT “THE MEMORY of the "massacre" of Jews at Babi Yar is painful to all politicians. But evidence shows it never happened. Aerial reconnaissance photos taken before and during World War II show mass graves of victims of the Soviet Cheka/NKVD, but an absence of Jewish mass burials. What if anything, happened at a place called Babi Yar (Old Woman's Ravine) near Kiev, Ukraine - September 29, 1941? According to official histories and inscriptions on monuments, 250,000 people, mostly Jews, were killed by the Nazis there. But if thousands of Kievan Jews (those not evacuated by the Soviets) were killed in September of 1941 by the Germans, they were not murdered or buried at Babi Yar. This fact was revealed in aerial reconnaissance photos discovered in the U.S. National Archives in Washington, DC.” CONTINUED “Air Photo Evidence” http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndaerial.html EXCERPT "4.3. Babi Yar EXCERPT "We may conclude with certainty that no part of the Babi Yar ravine was subjected to topographical changes of any magnitude during the war years right up to the Soviet reoccupation of the area. The vegetation in this valley was also not disturbed.[16] Hence, there can have been no mass graves in these locations, and the mass cremations attested to can also not have taken place at this time." CONTINUED (1) "Germany’s Anti-Partisan Warfare during World War II" http://www.wearswar.com/2021/10/09/anti-partisan-warfare/ EXCERPT "Because German forces were always limited and always in demand at the front, German military and civilian authorities were all the more fearful of the disruption partisans could bring. Consequently, German army officers were trained to take a severe line against partisan activity in the Soviet Union. The combat of Soviet partisans in forests and swamps was regarded by German troops as the most dangerous of all types of warfare—favoring the hunted rather than the hunter. The partisans almost always killed captured German soldiers, frequently after inflicting brutal torture. The German anti-partisan forces operated in an extremely unpleasant environment that made the German units resent the partisans whose activities had caused them to be there. In summer huge swarms of flies and mosquitos made life miserable for German soldiers; in winter frostbite and trench foot were rampant." CONTINUED
Denying the Holocaust Holocaust denial is now a criminal offence in many countries. Ursula Haverbeck, dubbed “the Nazi grandma” by the German media, repeatedly claimed that Auschwitz was "not historically proven" to be a death camp, claiming it was a labour camp instead. An estimated 1.1 million people were murdered at the camp. 90 per cent of the victims were Jewish. She was sentenced to two years in prison in 2018. British historian David Irving was sentenced to three years in prison for denying the Holocaust in two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989. They included a call to end “the gas chambers fairy tale” and claims that Hitler had helped Europe’s Jews, and that the Holocaust was a myth. He pleaded guilty and told the court he now accepted that the Nazis had killed millions of Jews.
Antisemitism: Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
You still have not answered the questions from my previous Post about believeing debunked and physically impossible myths from proven frauds. That's what I meant when I asked you to stop being so evasive. Finally, I apologize for name-calling but I strongly resent repeatedly being called a liar in veiled terms,
Scammers are scammers. We'd better stick to those who don't cheat. You're excused. It's the topic. You can't help it. Anyone who tries whitewashing the Nazis is forced to lie. Either he lies himself, or he repeats the lies of professional Holocaust deniers. Please don't take this too personally, but if you continue walking down this evil pro-Nazi path, you'll always feel an icy wind against you.
Ursula is a particularly tragic figure. She was a little girl when Hitler was at the zenith of his power. The Germany she loved perished with the Allied victory. Today's Germany is no longer her homeland. I feel sorry for her.
