About the Holocaust

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by stan1990, Mar 11, 2019.

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Do you agree with the thoughts expressed in this thread?

Poll closed Apr 10, 2019.
  1. Yes

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  2. No

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  3. Maybe

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  1. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm still interested why you believe that the morgue / "gas chamber" could ever have served as a homicidal gas chamber in which 10,000 people were gassed to death after considering its many flaws and its location across from the hospital and next to the Gestapo office.
    Even if the morgue / "gas chamber" had a strong ventilation system, there's no air tight door and no chimney or flue to exhaust the toxic gas at a safe altitude. Therefore, anyone walking nearby would have been sickened during each gassing.

    I read the link you provided and after closer examination, I simply do not believe that 700 - 800 people could have been put into a space that is smaller than about 850 square meters (17m X 4.5m). In order to fit 700 - 800 people in that room, one would have to try to squeeze about 8 people into a square meter and that is a physical impossibility.

    Briefly put, if Pressac etc are wrong or being dishonest about the morgue / "gas chamber" holding 700 - 800 people and killing 10,000 people, why would any thinking individual believe anything that he and other Holocaust storytellers claim.




    "THE “HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBER” SHOWN AT AUSCHWITZ WAS NEVER A GAS CHAMBER"
    https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/

    EXCERPT "The fact it was never a gas chamber has been admitted by the Auschwitz museum. Dr. Franciszek Piper, former senior curator and director of the Auschwitz State Museum admitted on videotape that the holes in the ceiling that were purportedly used to throw Zyklon-B into the rooms used for “homicidal gas chambers” were added AFTER the war, as was the chimney that is built near to, but NOT even attached to, the supposed “gas chamber” building, a building that was in actuality used as a air raid shelter –" CONTINUED



    "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts"
    http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml
    EXCERPT
    "Fake 'Gas Chamber'

    Each year for decades, tens of thousands of visitors to Auschwitz have been shown an execution "gas chamber" in the main camp, supposedly in its "original state." In January 1995 the prestigious French weekly magazine L'Express acknowledged that "everything" about this "gas chamber" is "false," and that it is in fact a deceitful postwar reconstruction." CONTINUED
     
  2. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    Simply because the people disappeared. They were deported to Auschwitz and were never seen again. It's very unlikely that the story of the gas chambers is a fake, later invented after the victims were murdered.
     
  3. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Even though it is common among people who believe the standard holocaust narrative (SHN), I don't think that it is constructive to use insulting terms to slander people who hold different opinions or insult experts who have refuted Holocaust lore simply because they present inconvenient facts.

    As I've noted before, far more people around the world do not believe the SHN according to a study done by the ADL.(1)
    Most people who do believe the SHN (holocaustians) have been influenced by Western mainstream media (MSM) and have learned about the Holocaust via Hollywood. Meanwhile, the vast majority of the world does not believe the SHN.

    Refusing to believe the physically and technically impossible SHN has nothing to do with hating Jews, or a fondness for reprehensible Nazism.
    It is simply an ability to think for yourself while looking for an honest and accurate account of what really happened in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s rather than believing the long debunked Allied propaganda narrative. Yes, it is at least naive to think that only the Nazis and Communists used or use propaganda and only the victorious Allies narrative is the honest truth.

    The strongest indicator that the flimsy SHN is false is the totalitarian style persecution of those who do not believe the SHN and repressive "Holocaust denial" laws.
    The truth, after all, welcomes the sunlight of open debate and honest examination while a lie can only survive under the darkness of repressive censorship.




    (1) ”THE WORLD IS FULL OF HOLOCAUST DENIERS”
    https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...he-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/

    EXCERPT “Only 54 percent of the world's population has heard of the Holocaust.

    This is the most staggering statistic in a new survey by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of more than 53,000 people in over 100 countries, conducted by First International Resources.

    Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts.

    Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth.

    Thirty percent of respondents said it's probably true that "Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust."

    - Hindus were most likely to believe that the number of Holocaust deaths has been exaggerated.

    - people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted”CONTINUED
     
  4. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, more than 200,000 inmates were transferred from Auschwitz and about 1,500 people who served their sentences were released.
    As you know, Germany, like every country had genuine criminals and not everyone was incarcerated simply because of their race, religion, or political affiliation.

    Do you agree that it would have been impossible to fit 8 people inside a square meter and therefore 700 - 800 people inside the morgue / "gas chamber"?

    Also, considering its location and many limitations do you really think that the morgue / "gas chamber" was ever used as a homicidal gas chamber and if so, why do you think so?

    Thanks,



    "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts"
    http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml


    EXCERPT
    "Inmates Released

    More than 200,000 prisoners were transferred from Auschwitz to other camps, and about 8,000 were in the camp when it was liberated by Soviet forces. In addition, about 1,500 prisoners who had served their sentences were released, and returned to their home countries. [18] If Auschwitz had actually been a top secret extermination center, it is difficult to believe that the German authorities would have released inmates who "knew" what was happening there."CONTINUED

    [18.] Franciszek Piper essay in: Y. Gutman & M. Berenbaum, eds., Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp(1994), p. 71.
     
  5. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if this also applied to Auschwitz, but it's true that the Nazis detained people for half a year in concentration camps for minor offenses. They were usually released after that. Otherwise, their term was extended for another 6 months and so on, until they were considered "good 3rd Reich citizen".

    But that did not apply to political prisoners, homosexuals, and Jews. They were exposed to constant arbitrariness. Either they came free at some point, or not at all, or they were killed. Human rights were subordinate In Nazi Germany. Please don't forget that.

    Sounds wrong to me ...
    Where do the numbers come from? I bet they come from the phantasy of Holocaust deniers. Do you have a reputable source for them?
     
  6. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member

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    I love you, too, Pitbull! :razz:
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member

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    Ahem... in the village I grew up in during Hitler's time, we also had a young man in his early twenties, who was a known Homosexual. During the war, I must have been about 8 or 9 years old, I would overhear at the table my Dad telling my Mom that Emil R. had been caught by the police and was now sitting in a jail in Kiel. He had been caught loitering around the "Herren Toiletten" by the nearby train station. After a few weeks he was back. He was never drafted, as far as I can tell. After the war he was still in the office where one of my brothers also worked.
    We also had a severely handicapped young lady in the next little village. She lived with her parents and was still able to do some small manual jobs. Alvine K. was her name, known around the area. She was never taken to a concentration Camp or Asylum. She was harmless. Later, after the war, I learned that she probably had been sterilized to avoid getting pregnant.
    There also was a boy in the nearby town, whom I met occasionally with his father. This boy, around my age perhaps or a few years older, was severely retarded, both, physically and mentally. He lived all the way through the war with his parents.

    That shows clearly that Hitler did not do away with Homosexuals nor handicapped kids and grownups!
    So, pitbull, don't believe everything you read, because so much are just lies to make the Germans look horrible.
     
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  8. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    That clearly shows that some were lucky enough to escape the general persecution.

    BTW, Hitler's order to murder the handicapped:
    [​IMG]

    Nobody rushes against Germans. They just had the misfortune to make a criminal the head of state who plunged nearly all of Europe into the abyss.
     
  9. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member

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    O.k., kids, pack up and let's go home...
    https://12bytes.org/articles/histor...escuing-israel-the-holocaust-the-gas-chambers
    ------

    Isn't that clear enough? What else are we looking for?
    I'm done with this:deadhorse:subject!

    :bye:
    You understand German? Well, what it says there makes absolute sense. YOU should be ashamed to bring this as something inhumane und criminalistic! It's the opposite... compassion.
    Now, amuse yourself without me, I'm out of it!
     
  10. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    "Hitler the benefactor", that's ridiculous.
    You are a neo-Nazi, dear friend. :(
     
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  11. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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  12. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't doubt that there were human rights abuses in Nazi Germany just as there have been human rights abuses around the planet since the beginning of recorded history. I simply don't believe the standard holocaust narrative because it contains too many technical and physical impossibilities and absolutely no hard evidence to support its claims.

    For example, you asked: "Where do the numbers come from? I bet they come from the phantasy of Holocaust deniers."

    The "phantasy" numbers I cited came from a source that you provided and you quoted in your Post # 644:

    http://www.deathcamps.org/gas_chambers/gas_chambers_auschwitz.html

    EXCERPT "The gas chamber was installed in the mortuary of the crematory, and could contain between 700 and 800 persons (17 x 4.5 m). The Zyklon B was poured into the gas chamber through openings in the roof. This gas chamber had no dummy shower fittings on the ceiling. The use of the mortuary had an additional benefit in that it possessed a strong ventilation system, in contrast to the cellar of Block 11."CONTINUED

    Because I think for myself, I simply figured that in order to fit 700 - 800 people into a space that is 17 x 4.5 one would have to squeeze about 8 people into 1 square meter which is simply impossible. Therefore, your "phantasy" source from the standard holocaust narrative is neither accurate nor honest.

    If you consider sources from which you have shaped your own opinions to be phantasies, isn't it time to question the rest of the fictitious standard holocaust narrative?

    There's nothing wrong with thinking for yourself.
     
  13. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    That's a very interesting question. Where is the mistake?

    I found another document that says something similar:
    The document is here: http://www.auschwitz-prozess.de/index.php?show=materialien.snip.html
    (The first link "Zur Geschichte des Lagers Auschwitz")

    So far that is a bit strange, indeed. I'll keep looking if I can find out more exactly, how the gassing went on in the main camp.
     
  14. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    I found a researcher's website that deals with the density of people. He states that 5 people per square meter should be the maximum so that everyone can stand free and look ahead.
    --> http://www.gkstill.com/Support/crowd-density/CrowdDensity-1.html
    [​IMG]
    (5 people per square meter)

    Under simulation, up to 10 people per square meter are possible, but then really no one can move anymore. This almost corresponds to an overcrowded tramcar, I think.

    What can we learn from that? Our imagination has failed us!

    It is definitely possible to force 800 victims into a room of 75 square meters.
    The case can be closed. :)
     
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  15. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think that it is accurate to pronounce that the case is closed even if one could fit 800 people into a 75 square meter room that is across from the hospital and next to the Gestapo office because it is simply not rational thinking to consider that the Nazis or anyone would have chosen that location or that room to gas anyone.

    Please remember that people being pushed into that room are hysterical, desperate, pushing each other and simply not cooperating so it is more realistic that "only" 500 could be pushed into that room because they are pushing back.

    If the Nazis were truly executing people on a "systematic and industrial scale", they certainly would not have chosen to gas 800 people in that room with such a flimsy wooden door and a window that opens from the inside in that location.

    If one was left with 800 dead bodies in a room full of toxic gas across from the hospital and next to the Gestapo office and no ventilation system, the toxic fumes would kill or sicken anyone walking nearby and take weeks or months to empty, dispose to the bodies and clean the room for the next gassing. That's hardly exterminating people on an "industrial scale".

    Remember, holocaust lore has it that 10,000 people were gassed in that room across from the hospital and next to the Gestapo office. In order to execute 10,000 people, the Nazis would have had to repeat that same foolish process about 12 times which also is simply not rational thinking.

    What makes you think that the Nazis would have chosen such a grossly inadequate room to gas 800 people about 12 times in a building across from the hospital and next to the Gestapo office?
     
  16. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The source you cited in this post was:

    EXCERPT "Crematorium I (a total of 3 ovens with 2 burners each, capacity: 340 dead bodies in
    24 hours; Completion: Furnace 1: August 1940; Oven 2: February 1941; Oven 3: May 1942;
    in operation until July 1943) Gas chamber ("mortuary" or "Leichenkeller";"CONTINUED

    If my math is correct, your source claims that it would take about 15 minutes to cremate one person.
    However, even in modern cremation ovens (aka muffles), it takes 2.0 - 2.5 hours just to cremate one body.(1)
    Additionally, it would be foolish to think that is possible to cremate 2 or 3 bodies at once in one oven without taking 2 or 3 times as long.


    (1) "9 Things About Cremation"
    https://www.elementalnw.com/2014/05/26/9-things-cremation/


    EXCERPT "4. Cremation is fast. Fast compared to decomposition, but most people don’t know that it takes 2 – 2.5 hours to cremate a human body. As a general rule, people don’t spend a whole bunch of time thinking about the details of cremation, and so when pressed, most people think that it should take 15 – 30 minutes. There’s a lot of water to boil off, and heating water is a long, energy intensive process. "CONTINUED
     
  17. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    As I mentioned earlier, the gas chamber in the main Auschwitz camp was a prototype. Its maximum capacity of 700 to 800 victims could never meet the expected deportation numbers, so the Nazis worked feverishly to build the high-performance extermination facilities at Birkenau.

    As long as the Nazis only had Auschwitz-1, they had to reduce their desire for mass murder of Jews. Incoming trains full of victims could only be gassed in chunks of max. ~800 people. I think that was a real pain in the ass for Himmler, Hoess and their accomplices.

    I bet there exists a list of all murdering actions that took place in the Auschwitz-1 gas chamber. I think we need this book:
    [​IMG]
    Maybe there is also an English version?
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  18. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    Typical crematories burn only single corpses because the relatives don't want to mix the ashes of their deceased with other dead.

    But for the Nazis, dead Jews were just garbage. Their corpses had to be eliminated as fast as possible, at least as fast as they were killed. Therefore, several bodies were burned at the same time, which also minimizes the need for additional firewood.

    Incidentally, in Birkenau, only compressed air was needed to keep the combustion process going (and to control the temperature). Once heated, only more corpses had to be thrown in.
     
  19. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Germany as well as many other countries already had many functioning and efficient gas chambers in the form of delousing facilities even before WW 2 for which there are many blueprints, air tight steel doors, powerful exhaust systems, ventilation chimneys etc and did not need a prototype to know that a homicidal gas chamber would also need air tight doors, powerful exhaust systems, ventilation chimneys etc.

    In other words, they wouldn't need a prototype for something that they and other countries had been using.

    The morgue / "gas chamber" at Auschwitz 1 has absolutely none of these essential features already known to the Nazis to function as any type of gas chamber and there is not one blueprint, work order or photograph of a single homicidal gas chamber in the entire area controlled by the Nazis.

    Additionally, the flimsy, wooden and glass door, window that locks from the inside, lack of exhaust system and absence of a ventilation chimney as well as the location next to the Gestapo office and across from the hospital means that this room could never have functioned as a homicidal gas chamber even once without disastrous consequences to anyone operating the "gas chamber" or even walking nearby.
    You realize, of course, that cyanide gas is highly explosive and the technically sophisticated Germans would never have placed a gas chamber of any type next to cremation ovens.

    I'm willing to agree that it is possible to barely squeeze about 750 cooperative people into a 75 square meter space but I cannot imagine that such a grossly inadequate room could ever have been used as a homicidal gas chamber even once no matter what the fraudulent Holocaust Industry(2) claims.
    It is claimed by the same fraudulent Holocaust Industry that 10,000 people were gassed in that room which means that the Nazis would have to have used the same fatally flawed "prototype" about 12 times with disastrous results each time.

    Do you still really believe that this grossly inadequate room could ever have been used by the Nazis to gas 700 - 800 people about 12 times and, if so, why do you believe something which is so overwhelmingly improbable?

    Please note:
    EXCERPT
    "Fake 'Gas Chamber'

    Each year for decades, tens of thousands of visitors to Auschwitz have been shown an execution "gas chamber" in the main camp, supposedly in its "original state." In January 1995 the prestigious French weekly magazine L'Express acknowledged that "everything" about this "gas chamber" is "false," and that it is in fact a deceitful postwar reconstruction."(1) CONTINUED



    (1) "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts"
    http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml


    (2) "HOLOCAUST CLAIMS CONFERENCE FRAUD LIKELY ‘MUCH HIGHER’ THAN $57 MILLION"
    http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Holoc...aud-likely-much-higher-than-57-million-408298

    EXCERPT "Writing to the Claims Conference’s board last week, recently terminated ombudsman Shmuel Hollander asserted that, while reports had said organizational insiders had siphoned off $57 million in German taxpayer funds meant for survivors, “the final sum is in all probability much higher.”CONTINUED
     
  20. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, you are wrong, Mr. Grau. The first victims killed in Germany by poison gas were disabled persons. They were murdered in the context of the euthanasia program "Aktion T4" beginning in September 1939. Killed were individuals and small groups. The Nazis used CO gas in large gas cylinders for this purpose.

    This had little to do with the mass extermination at Auschwitz. The Holocaust had very different requirements and used other killing tools (poison gas in bound form, HCN instead of CO). The Nazis were true pioneers of efficient genocide using poison gas and the elimination of traces by sophisticated cremation technology.

    I read in Hoess's memoir that the first gassing in Auschwitz-1 involved about 900 Russian POWs. It took several hours. I don't know if these 900 victims were gassed in one piece or in chunks.

    BTW, 900 people on 75 square meters could probably be problematic. I notice again how my lack of knowledge pulls me on the side of the Holocaust deniers. :(
     
  21. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, except for excellent German records and eye witnesses, you might have something.
     
  22. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    The 10 commandments of making a Holocaust denier
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    1 - Tell him that the HC was physically impossible
    2 - Tell him all witnesses are liars
    3 - Tell him about a Jewish world conspiracy
    4 - Tell him that the nazis respected human rights and human dignity
    5 - Tell him that the winner always constructs history as it suits him best
    6 - Tell him that there was no written order by Hitler to kill all Jews
    7 - Tell him that Auschwitz wasn't an extermination camp
    8 - Tell him that you're neither anti-Semite nor neo-Nazi
    9 - Appeal to his lack of knowledge and imagination
    10 - Appeal to common sense and logic
     
  23. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Before we move on to other alleged killings, I'd like to hear why you would believe that 700 - 800 people were gassed about 12 times in such a grossly inadequate room as the alleged homicidal gas chamber in Auschwitz 1.
    I get the feeling that you are beginning to think that this claim, too, is "problematic".

    In spite of the fact that the Germans and many other countries were already using sophisticated, cyanide delousing facilities, that morgue / "gas chamber" had a flimsy, wooden and glass door, a window that locks from the inside, lacked an essential powerful exhaust system and a ventilation chimney.
    Additionally, it was next to the Gestapo office and across from the hospital which means that this room could never have functioned as a homicidal gas chamber even once without disastrous consequences to anyone operating the "gas chamber" or even walking nearby.

    Re:
    It's not your lack of knowledge, it's simply that you did some independent research on the number of people that could possibly fit into a square meter and discovered that reality conflicts with fantasy. At some point, you must ask yourself what other outrageous claims are "problematic".

    I find that generalized name calling or attempting to label people as "Holocaust denier", "holocaustian cultist" etc is neither accurate nor constructive.

    Please remember that after Hoess made his confession after 3 days and nights of brutal torture. As I mentioned before, Hoess was also pronounced as mentally ill after the trauma of his torture. It was during his incarceration after he was beaten senseless and tortured that Hoess was ordered to write that autobiography in which he also claimed that 2.5 million Jews were gassed just during his time as commandant, fabricated an entire camp named "Wolzek" and numerous other things that are now rejected by everyone as impossible. His autobiography was also so heavily edited by Martin Broszat that it bears little resemblance to his original outrageous document.
     
  24. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you were to look over the last few pages, you will notice that "pit bull" & I have been able to discuss this topic with respect, civility and without snarky sarcasm etc. If you feel that you can do the same, please feel free to join in.

    Re:
    In spite of over 70 years of searching through hundreds of tons of "excellent German records", not one single written order by Hitler has been found that calls for the extermination of Europe's Jewish community:

    “To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.”

    - Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190


    Re:
    Firstly, of the thousands of former inmates interviewed by the Red Cross after the war, not one single former inmate mentioned anything about execution by homicidal gas chambers:

    EXCERPT "The Vatican and Red Cross interviewed thousands of freed camp inmates at the end of the War about alleged gas chambers. The response was always the same, "The detainees themselves have not spoken of them" (Red Cross document No. 9925, June 1946)." CONTINUED (1)

    Secondly, eyewitnesses who tell the truth about homicidal gas chambers are heavily censored by the mainstream Holocaust Industry:

    - EXCERPT " An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced laborer. On the train journey to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz. Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads." CONTINUED (2)


    - EXCERPT " A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of gas chambers during the time she was interned there. She heard the gassing stories only later." CONTINUED (2)




    (1) “The Problems of Mass Gassing”
    http://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/05/was-there-really-a-judaic-holocaust/


    (2) "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts"
    http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml
     
  25. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    The gas chamber at Auschwitz-1 has a maximum capacity of 700 to 800 victims. We don't know if the Nazis were always taking full advantage of this capacity, or if they murdered them in smaller groups of say ~500 persons.

    We already know that Auschwitz-1 had a ventilation system. 300 ppm of HCN in the air is absolutely deadly for humans. Insects like lice need a lot more HCN to be reliably killed.

    At least that 300 ppm of HCN had to prevail inside the gas chamber to kill every human in a few minutes. After the ventilation had sucked the HCN/air mix out of the gas chamber, I doubt that a harmful concentration in the outside air could arise.

    BTW, we lack a lot of information. I doubt if it still makes sense to talk about the Auschwitz-1 gas chamber.

    I found a book (unfortunately only in German) that looks promising to me.
    --> https://www.hsozkult.de/conferencereport/id/tagungsberichte-2129
    The book is named "Mass killings in Nazi concentration- and death camps. Historical significance, technical development, revisionist denial".

    I think we have to read such stuff, otherwise, we'll both walk around in the dark and be guided by our own biased opinions and wrong judgments rather than facts. :(
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019

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