Afghan boy suicide bombers tell how they are brainwashed

exactly.

anyone who has ever had real contact with muslim people (other than in a war zone when you are an invader in their country) is unlikely to have met any muslims as obsessive and hateful as many of the posters onthese forums.

it doesn't mean these people don't exist - there good and bad among all types, but they are a minority among muslims as they are among every other group ... except perhaps among people who participate in political forums.

 

sounds like a breivik type crusader.

his arguments were effectively just the other side of the fence.

good job he was stopped.

to hate all muslims because of someone like that is a sign of mental instability.

 

you don't have to be einstein to know the time differences.

in any case, you seem to seek out my posts more than I seek out yours, so you are more of a stalker than I would ever be.

I think you are a smart man, you really are not like the majority of the knee jerk islamophobes, so I can't help wondering what your game is.

While it is true that there are some muslims who present the problems you refer to, you would know as well as I do that this does not represent the majority of muslims, so I really do think you are playing some kind of agenda.

don't care if you think it sounds like I'm into conspiracy, I am calling it as I see it.

I have had plenty to do with muslims both in my own country and in other places, inclusing muslim countries. they are not as you describe, in general. true, many are conservative in their habits and their views, some do not seem to understand the concept of "rights" in relation to their children that we have - but its ludicrous to say that this even only applies to muslims.

if you work with refugees you seem the same conservative/traditional values among many non musims refugees as well .. and immigrants from more traditional societies.

a person who is as well informed as you appear to be would know this.

that is why I think you fabricate a lot of what you say.

 

Is that what you call standing up to true antisemitism as one of the only posters here to do so? Pretty soft and hardly merits as such when compared to other posts you've dished up.

 

not really.

I am just asking for evidence to support his assertions.

 

What a wonderful thing it is that Western troops have deep philosophical discussions before they go into battle and urination!

 

yes really.
check my signature for another lovely quote.

travel a bit.
see the middle-east.
meet with people.
read some.
get the know politics.
study human nature.
educate yourself.
that's my today's wishy washy.

be well.

 

Not quite as deep as the Talibans:

Here little Ahmed,were going to strap this bomb to you and have attack something, its a free pass to Allah.
If you dont, we'll kill your family.

 

That’s true however you don’t have to be a James Bond to rob a bank either and I doubt it would help in a defense case to come with such a comment.

You seek out my posts! Perhaps its just that you post on topics that I’m interested in here? I think I’ve only ever responded to your posts in this part of the forum and you claimed to post all over the place didn’t you?

I suppose my game as such is to discuss the Islamic cultural radicalisation and its impact. Your game is obviously to essentially deny its very existance! 15 years ago I think I would have agreed with you however I have learnt a deal since then. At that time the only radical Muslims I’d known were a couple I was at college with in the 70’s and they were pretty odd anyway. One was an Iraqi who was always grudgingly accepting help from a rich brother while the other was a Palestinian from a rich family. At the time I was fiercely CND and they really wanted a nuke to drop on Israel so we had something to discuss! Now I know quite a few Muslims of different persuasions, some who celebrated 9/11 and who want to fight with the Taliban etc. others who are married to Danish men meeting family disapproval. I have seen how some have become radicalized, have you? Have you discussed 9/11, the Mohammed caricatures, Iraq and such issues with Muslims you know? Do you know any who support the Taliban, Al Qaeda or Al Shabaab? Do youi know Muslims who will not shake hands with you? Do you know Muslims who will correct you if you say Mohammed without uttering peace be upon him? Do you know Muslims who will kick Muslim girls they see not wearing hijab? These Muslims are not simply an extreme fringe and here is the evidence for you:

see attached


I’m calling it not only as I see it but how it can be documented too.

Yes, I can understand what you mean about traditional conservative attitudes among immigrants and others however this doesn’t account for what we are witnessing for example when have these attitudes hardened in the next generation rather than softened? I have never met any refugees other than Muslims, with an outright hostile attitude towards their host country. Although I would think anyone working with refugees would know this, unlike you I am open to hearing of conflicting personal experience and I would not conclude it to be fabricated! Generally I take people at their word.

 

I should have known you weren't worth the effort but when you aren't here to discuss what do you think you are accomplishing?

 

Then I'm afraid you were puffing yourself up to something you plainly aren't.

 

agreed 100%.
people are not here to discuss.

they are way too angry and full of prejudice,
their minds are conditioned like robots...

to be prefectly honest,
i don't have time for that, nor have the endless
urge to get into a "who is right" contest.

wanna talk sincerely for mutual understanding?
i'll do anything i can to contribute.

otherwise, i'm useless to you,
i advise you move on.

 

"Perhaps we cannot prevent this world from being a world in which children are tortured. But we can reduce the number of tortured children. And if you dont help us, who else in the world can help us do this?"

Albert Camus

 

If you believe that you have been brainwashed more thoroughly that most people in all history. Demonize, demonize, demonize, kill, kill, kill. God bless America!

 

OK now I've found another post of the same sort:

That justifies the act.

 

yeah sounds like a great idea. so when you gonna stop pretending muslim suicide bombers are not real and an everyday occurrence?

 

what?

so asking people to provide evidence is not ok on this forum?

I note the zionists just ignore people like that and label people who support the human rights of other groups as "anti semitic".

I also note that you accept his argument.

 

when are you going to realise that terrorism is the weapon of the weak, and it has not at all been exclusively used by muslims over the last few decades (until after 9/11 the majority of suicide bombers were not muslim).

the issue is political freedom.

dame eliza manningham-buller, former head of MI5, has stated very clearly that she believes that invasion of Iraq would radicalise young muslims in the UK, and that increasing democracy in countries such as Saudi Arabia would be a significant step in reducing terrorism.

the game we in the west have played over the last ten years or so has radicalised the muslim world.

we are in large part responsible for what we have seen.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/02/mi5-war-on-terror-criticism

in fact - the US chose to move the "war on terror" to Iraq knowing full well that this would create a scenario which would only increase the incidence of political violence in that region.

there are people who have been the victims of the "war on terror" - which has been directed at Muslim nations - who have indeed become radicalised over the last ten years - and we should not be surprised that they have rallied around religion, when we have targeted people of that religion.

but this does not mean that ALL muslims have become radicalised, or subscribe to radical beliefs.

I agree with Mehmet. you should try what he suggests.

my own contact with muslim people is that they are among the nicest and most hospitable people I have met.

as a woman who often travels alone, I prefer being in the Muslim world to being in some other places.

 

so knowing time zones is a crime?

no. it is clear that you seek my posts.

over the last few months the majority of my posts responding to yours are where you have already commented on my posts. this is clear.

first, you have the capacity to be aware of the factors that have contributed to increased radicalisation, but you discuss it as if it is in a vacuum, and is inherent to Islam.

second, there have always been people in every group who hold radical and even extreme views. it does not surprise me that some of those who have in the past held such views against Israel are in the Arab world. when I was a child, my father who was familiar with the region said that the creation of the state of Israel could bring about world war III. people will fight for what they believe is right - and I know I would fight if my lamd was taken and given to someone else. My mother was in Egypt during the Suez crisis. she was aware of the negative feelings towards her due to the actions of the British at that time. she also understood the reasons for this.

Third, there has been increasing radicalisation among muslims over the last 10 years. WRT those who may have "celebrated" 9/11 - you say you knew people who did. that is interesting. the many muslims I knew at the time were just as shocked as everyone else, and after a wehile began to be afraid - because of how people were reacting. I am not saying there weren't some who celebrated - I believe that there would be quite a few at the time who blamed america for the conflicts that had impacted on their lives, but even among those I have known who were critical of america, there was still strong condemnation of what happened - even among less educated muslims.

the increasing radicalisation is because many muslims feel they are under attack - and in many parts of the world this is true. I was in the Arab world during the Iraq invasion, and what I saw on Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya certainly did serve to radicalise muslims in the region. Like them, I didn't see the sanitised news reports of the invasion that people in the west did, and no doubt this has shaped my views of issues as well. And yes - at this time - and since - I have discussed these issues and politics - siyassa - a great deal with muslims.

yes, I do have contact with muslims who either don't shake hands, who who have a weak handshake because I am a woman. I also have contact with some men from other cultures who are the same. men from traditional societies can be quite uncomfortable in some situations, and I know that there are some cultures where western women especially are regarded as "dirty". some othordox Jews would also refer to me as a shiksa - a derogatory term for a gentile woman.

I have not met muslim men who kick muslim girls for not wearing hijab, but I have met plenty of muslim women who have been critical and even ostracised their muslim sisters who do not. I have encountered this both here and overseas, and I have had interesting discussions with both the bullies and the victims. I have also had contact with young people from Saudi and Iran who have told me about how oppressive it is for them in those countries, and I agree that religion in those places is used to violate human rights.

I have met muslim women (and even hindu women who have been mistaken for muslims) who have had hijab pulled off them by thugs on trains, and who have been spat on, and one woman who was even kicked inthe street by three teenagers not long after 9/11. I have also seen and heard of a number of other incidents which were low level hate crimes victimising muslim women.

documentary evidence from media sources is irrelevant. if I collated media reports from the US I would get a pretty distorted idea of what goes on there too. If I collected media reports about denmark no doubt the view I would have would be distorted. As an example, a couple of years ago there were reports about violence against indian students in australia that were widely reported in the Indian media. this led to the conclusion among indians that the attacks were racially motivated. investigation showed that this was not the case, however the perception, among many indians, has not changed.

we have contributed to the increasing radicalisation - and I know that if I were a young western muslim reading the pages on this forum, two possible effects could be that it could influence me to distance myself from my culture/religious heritage, or it could serve to radicalise me.

I have seen both reactions among the young muslims that I have seen. of course those who are not exposed to the virulent hatred of muslims seen on forums like this are less likely to be influenced by anti muslim sentiment either way, and those who have a very strong sense of self most likely will not, unless they come here frequently - it would eventually wear them down.

 

stop trying to blame someone else for anothers mistakes. the sole responsibility of how those psycho muslims act belongs to those psycho muslims who choose to carry out such actions.

its plain and simple, nobody is forcing a bomb onto these peoples bodies, they do it on their own accord.

its nobodies fault but the muslims who choose this line of action, quit trying to put the blame on others, its rather stupid to do so.

 

so why do you blame all muslims for the actions of a few?

how does that fit with the idea of who is responsible for these actions?

 

ONCE (*)(*)(*)(*)ING AGAIN, when i say psycho muslims im specifically speaking about psychos, the ones who put on bombs and go run into a crowd of innocent people and blow themselves up.

NOW PLEASE STOP PRETENDING IM LABELING ALL MUSLIMS AS PSYCHO BECAUSE IM NOT, and i explained that to mehmet and you would know that if you read our conversation.

 

no one said that.
that is your own assumption.

you are the one comparing an organised army of a
sovereign state with poor and brain washed people
who have been battered by russia then the u.s. to
be able to handle the drug trafficking of the world.

no one denies the existence.
yet i am focusing on the reasons.
you are dealing with the gewgaw.

i am looking behind the scenes
rather than the "entertainment" up front.

who's pulling the ropes rather than jolly dancers.

i've got some more analogies if you want to.

 

That’s the response of a flippant culprit. “Now Mr Smith you admit you had a camera on you outside the bank the day before the robbery, you do know how to use a camera don’t you?”. “Oh is it a crime now knowing how to use a camera?”

Whatever…. It may well be true that I have responded first however to conclude that this clearly means I seek out your posts is stretching it beyond the pale.

Good, so you do accept that there is in fact a radicalisation, that is the first step. I don’t know why you should think I discuss it as something inherent to Islam as I have never claimed such or given reason to believe I consider it so. This radicalization we are seeing is of modern date whereas Islam has been around for centuries.

I don’t understand your second point. Essentially it seems to be placing the genesis with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in which I cannot agree. The emergence of Islamist Hamas was much later than the PLO and PFLP. Perhaps you should learn from your mother and understand the negative reaction to Muslims and the reasons for this for example on this forum.

The increasing radicalization of Muslims dates much further back than the past decade. No, actually I said I know people, not knew. In certain circles it was joked that US had had its two front teeth knocked out. In these circles the elation over the success of this lead to both greater expectations and to bold talk. Many were convinced that Pakistan would fall and start a domino action akin to the Arab spring. Many were drawn into a desire to take an active part in the fight. The fact that you have no contact with such Muslim circles has aided your misperception of reality.

The feeling of being under attack is something which is largely cultivated and is not true and it predates the Iraqi invasion. In other words the causal relationship is the reverse. It is clear now that your third point was setting the stage for this argument. Yes, no doubt AJ and AA reporting also served to add to the radicalization. Actually people in the West also have access to these reports and reliable Western media also use their reports. So have these Muslims you discussed with become Islamists en par with the circles I know? I think not and I think it would be a good idea if you tried some Islamist netfora, I think it might open your eyes and shift your perception of the spectrum of Muslim views.

I think I have asked you before without getting an answer but what exactly do you mean by traditional societies? Do you simply mean non Western? Can you outline the two sides of the argument from the bullies and the victims and why do you regard them as such irrespective of whether they are overseas or not? Don’t you think the young Saudis and Iranians you have had contact with are not representative? Do you believe the HR you speak of are Western and only appropriate in the context of Western culture?

Documentary evidence such as I gave you is not the same as collated media reports. Do you doubt the poll results? PEW goes to extensive lengths to ensure accuracy why do you dismiss their work in the field? I think if you were careful to collect a broad range of media reports about Denmark you would have a pretty good picture. It is naturally quite possible that Indians have a distorted picture of the situation for Indians in Australia due to unbalanced Indian coverage just as it is possible that you have due to the same in Australian media. For example you claim an investigation showed no racist motivation and yet an Indian government investigation showed some. Perhaps the Australian media you use didn’t report on this like the Indian media did:

Only 23 of 152 Oz attacks racist, Ministry tells LS

However an interested balanced Australian could have read an Indian media report instead of relying solely on Australian ones.

However all that aside as I pointed out a PEW survey is not the same as a media report. Do you believe the results? They indicate my view of Muslim attitudes based on the Muslims I know is a lot closer target than yours based on the Muslims you have contact with.

Rather difficult to say since we don’t know what would have happened otherwise but its difficult to see what response would have had the right effect and the West cannot be tied for fear of exacerbating the ongoing radicalisation. Should the allies prior to WW2 not have increased armaments out of fear of provoking an even greater rearmament of Nazi Germany?

What about other groups then that are victims of virulent hatred on this forum? In my experience anti Muslim sentiment plays a very minor role in leading Muslims to be radicalised. This is evident since radicalisation happens across virtually the whole spectrum of Muslim societies irrespective of anti Muslim sentiment.

 

Are you again guilty of using the highest estimate because it suits your cause? What if the number of victims of suicide attacks is taken instead? I think you'll find that in modern times prior to 9/11 most people killed by suicide attacks have been the victims of Muslim attackers. Also if you look at the initial use, geographic and conflict distribution then you will see Muslim attackers.