America's flawed democracy

From the Guardian, here:
America's flawed democracy: the five key areas where it is failing

Excerpt:

Nobody expected Trump to win this last election to the presidency. In fact, he lost and Hillary won according to the popular-vote. But, in the US, that's just not good enough.

The Electoral College is an obsolete voting-mechanism (dating from 1804) given the modern technology today that could get directly and without delay the popular-vote to DC would declare an elected PotUS. No other major democracy on earth employs an Electoral College. (See here a list of those that do.)

Five times in the history of the US, the Electoral College has voted into office the presidential candidate that lost the popular-vote. Which is simply NOT A FAIR DEMOCRACY!

Uncle Sam can easily do better in electing its Head-of-state, and he should ... !

 

My view is as long as both sides get roughly the same time in power the system doesn't matter. Due to Trump's ineptitude the Right only get 4 years this time, but Reagan + Bush senior was 12, so it evens out

 

You're saying that an electoral system that is fundamentally-flawed is still OK because we have "learned to live with it"?

The two political-parities know perfectly well the flaws of the present system and they both play with them. We may think we live in a Real Democracy.

But really we don't ... and that is yet another flaw in America's so-called democracy. The nation's lack of a competent and uniform Civics education! See here - from
The State of Civics Education, excerpt:

Need more be said? We have a failing political system for two reasons. Because people either don't know how to vote, or if they do they are manipulated by political-party TV-adverts. As if choosing someone for elective-office was less important than selecting a ready-made hamburger at MacDonalds ...
...

 

For those who think America's democracy is in a sorry state, from the Pew Research Center: Concerns about democracy in the digital age

Excerpt:

PS: The link above goes to a long but interesting discussion regarding America's dysfunctional-democracy. One must be patient ... there are no obviously quick-'n-simple answers! But one would be a national law stipulating that no one could obtain a High School degree without at least passing the course in Civics.

 

Still wondering leftists are going to learn that we don't live in straight democracy. Mob rule is a great way to get what you want...if you don't mind trampling the little guy. Our system is designed to take into account EVERYONE by forcing the majority to listen to the little guy.

Yes, I can see the argument now..."tyranny of the minority". Except that is a false argument. As the OP mentions, the minority has only won the Presidential seat 5 times in history. Hardly something to be worried about since it happens so rarely. 5 times out of 46.

And the OP's article was nothing more than an emotional puff piece designed to fear monger. Not even worth the time I took to read it. "Trump bad" "Republican bad". Paints both as evil. Nothing more than trying to dehumanize both so as to excuse the bad things leftists do. Which hypocritically enough, is generally the same things Republicans do. Oh wait...let me guess ... More excuses and no doubt a few whataboutisms as if Republicans do worse things?........ B.S. Two sides of the same coin is what is used to describe both sides. Neither side with any real differences.

 

I hope that course on Civics will include the elementary definition of what a 'Republic' is and how the Electoral College has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said here. Almost. To you a "real democracy" is one which the popular vote always wins. IE: a straight democracy. Well, you're right. We don't live in a straight democracy. There is a reason for that. Two of them as a matter of fact.

Which brings us to your comment and explanation of our education system failing. You're right about that. If you had learned about our system then you would know the two reasons why we don't live in a straight democracy. Your comments on our system is a perfect example of it failing.

Another perfect example from you. You admit that people are manipulated...here you are being manipulated. You posted a perfect example of an article that is designed to manipulate by preying on people's fears. That is its sole purpose. There is no other reason to even make such an article...except to manipulate you into exactly what you did. Complain about the EC.

 

Representative Republic. We're not a straight Republic. Just like we're not a straight democracy.

 

No I'm simply saying that there isn't such a compelling reason to change it if both sides are getting their turn. one way or another Democrats have been doing ok.

If the electoral college was changed as you suggest Republicans would never get in. I think this would be extremely disruptive to your society and even if they weren't in power the "other side" would disrupt, and even (dangerously) go underground.

 

How is a "representative" republic not a "straight" republic?

 

Mel-Muser I think you are looking at things in a very simplistic way - the idea that two Parties, both funded by Oligarchs, need to take turns in order for there to be Democracy. America is an Oligarchy like most Western countries have become. Both Parties in the main do the same thing. Trump was the abberation but he still very much answered to the Oligarchs. What stoped Sanders from standing? Both is this election and the last many people believe he would have won. Why did he stand down when he was far more popular than Biden? Democracy currently is a mask.

 

To answer your question you have to ask... What IS the United States of America?

 

As a type it's a Constitutional representative republic Now PLEASE answer my question. What is the difference between a "straight" republic and a "representative" republic. Are you trying to say that a "straight" republic is like Venice or the Netherlands, where only a fairly small group has any say? and that a "representative" republic is one where the people rule through their representatives? Strictly speaking the Venetian and Dutch examples are oligarchies. America is unique though, at least in the 19th century in being a Republic where we have Universal suffrage, so I will give you that.

 

I didn't ask you what type of government the US is. I asked you what IS the United States of America. A straight republic is a single sovereign state. We are not a single sovereign state. We are a nation of states. It is for that reason that the EC is a part of our process. To give voice to each state with in the United States of America.

 

True. It is an enhancement to our republic providing additional checks and balances.

 

Trump exposed a weakness in our democracy other then the anachronistic EC. Much of the prez's behavior is based on an expectation of decency and honor not codified in to law. Trump exploited that fact. Going forward, we need to make things like extorting a foreign leader, benefitting financially from the presidency, naming family members to high level positions, firing Inspectors General without cause, stonewalling Congress, etc., unambiguously illegal.

 

When I was a schoolkid, I couldn't graduate from 8th grade until I passed an all day written and oral series of Contitution tests. It wasn't easy, but for today's 8th graders it would be impossible.

Speaking of McDonald's, many things that used to be common knowledge have become "lost arts." My first part time job was at a brand new Burger King that was on my walking route to and from high school. I got the first ever job there, not flipping burgers but running the cash register. Back then, you had to calculate the change in your head, and none of the other applicants could do that. These days, they don't even need to read ... they punch a button with a picture of the customer's ordered item. As a society, we are coddling the stupid.

I agree with the failure of the EC. It didn't make much sense in 1787, and less so now. When each vote from a low population state like Wyoming carries a 3.7 to 1 advantage over each vote in California, we are not getting presidents who are representative of the views of most voters.

 

If it's true that "Republicans would never get in" under a more equitable election system, perhaps the problem is one of merit. If the majority don't agree with your policies, what right do you have to get elected in the first place? The GOP has become honorless in their endless attempts to maintain a minority rule.

I get that we need balance, but two or more parties must demonstrate an ability to govern at local and state levels as well as national. I vote based on the merit of the candidate or issue ... or I did until the GOP pushed Trump on us and spent four years coddling and enabling him. Because of Trump, I will never vote for another Republican until or unless they abjectly apologize for their lack of honor, and reform their platform to include at least some of the views and values that they used to express.

 

Bernie had to stand down this year and in 2016 because he didn't have the votes. Period.

Apologies for being so adamant, but while I like Bernie, I'm so sick of hearing about how he was somehow cheated out of the nomination both times. The FACT of the matter is that his very progressive policies, with which I mostly agree, are just too far left for most voters. Most voters are slightly left-leaning centrists, which is what Biden has always been.

 

As a type it's a Constitutional representative republic Now PLEASE answer my question. What is the difference between a "straight" republic and a "representative" republic. Are you trying to say that a "straight" republic is like Venice or the Netherlands, where only a fairly small group has any say? and that a "representative" republic is one where the people rule through their representatives? Strictly speaking the Venetian and Dutch examples are oligarchies. America is unique though, at least in the 19th century in being a Republic where we have Universal suffrage, so I will give you that.

 

Hear Hear, Exactly. Somebody has to PAY for foisting this UnAmerican incipient despot down on us. If you clearly demonstrate for several years that you positively HATE the values that made this country great you still have every right to exist here but I'm not going to vote for you

If you need a battering ram to get past a door you might just consider why it's locked in the first place.

 

No democracy is perfect. That's unrealistic.

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…" -- Winston Churchill

Yes, we need to reform some of our processes, even if that means amending the constitution.

"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence, and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human, and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment."

"Laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

-- both of the above were from Thomas Jefferson.

 

It's true, republicans are going to find this presidency hard to live down. I still maintain the point that even without a representation worthy of merit that right wing minority ( in the population) if unfed are going to throw a crowbar in the works far worse than the riots and looting of the 'extreme left'. I hope I'm wrong!

 

Sleep Monster I am not American. I am only saying what I have heard and from people who clearly are intelligent and knowledgable. Who was not giving him the votes? I have heard he had more than Biden when he decided to give up - after a talking to by Obama. (by the way even if you are able to show me I am wrong on this, my view of the US being an autocratic state with voting now being more to give the semblance of a Democracy remains.)

 

I have heard that that is a possibility as well. I too hope you are wrong.