Anosognosia & the power of belief

But that's the point; presupposing a law that a table requires a carpenter achieves exactly nothing: A table is an object made by a carpenter, therefore an object not made by a carpenter cannot be a table. Which is an utterly redundant waste of breath.

 

why should a gradual quantitative transition conflict with abrupt creation?
Allah created time, space and everything else. and still holds all the laws in
the creation, and continues to create every single second. all laws and mass
rely on him.

how do you know how the time works from the perspective of the creator?
our biggest fault is to think on behalf of the creator.
that, in my opinion, ruins our objectivity.

"be and it is" vs evolution or "be and it is" and evolution?

leibniz's famous apothegm natura non facit saltus—“nature makes no jump”
is perfectly compatible with the system described in the qur'an...

science is the act of supposing based on "current" data.
and that data changes with the light of speed.
what we call evidence is not significant with a new discovery.

thus i think this discussion should mostly be within the parameters
of philosophy and theology rather than mere physical sciences.

by keeping these in mind i would like to add; nothing is by coincidence.

mind that all that i have written above are not my absolute views...
just wandering around the horizon and thinking of various possibilities
without precise definitions.

agreed.

who keeps track of snow flakes or crystals or leaves in the forest?
thus what makes you think they are random?
we have no data to claim that.

we may only grasp the six-fold radial symmetry of the flakes.
obviously a design there. and watch certain happenings and draw
the conclusion of a recognazible pattern. but that's it, a hint for
the bigger picture.

even this fella here accepts an intelligent designer.
he is not a reference point for me, just giving an example of thought process.

the whole idea shouldn't be a projection of our own image.
as in: "if we can design things that work, anything else that
works, well, must be therefore designed by somebody else".

maybe the problem is, even if we think we are thinking out of the box,
we are actually not...

as i mentioned above;
what if the universe / the creation was evolved and created
at the same time?​

aren't we prejudging when we assume that the creation and the evolution
is apart? i am not claiming it is not, but one dimensional thinking won't
get you far when you are talking about a highly complex system such as
the universe... layers upon layers with no conflict. creatures over creatures
all have a purpose in nature. and obviously "us", the humanoids.

how much do we know really? to be sure?

in the qur'an;

71:14-18
While He has created you in stages?
Do you not consider how Allah has created seven heavens in layers
And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?
And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
Then He will return you into it and extract you [another] extraction.​

the first evolution theory has come from islamic scientists
and philosophers in the 8th century. way before darwin.
partly explained here.

again in the qur'an about the creation of man:

23:12-14
And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay.
Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging.
Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We
made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the
lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We
developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah ,
the best of creators.

77:20-24
Did We not create you from a liquid disdained?
And We placed it in a firm lodging
For a known extent.
And We determined [it], and excellent [are We] to determine.

that's the embryologic development.
by the way it is recently discovered by humanity while it was
in the qur'an for 1400 years...

but that aside, qur'an also states:

24:45
Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them
are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that
walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah
creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

it also states:

6:98
And it is He who produced you from one soul and [gave you] a place
of dwelling and of storage. We have detailed the signs for a people
who understand.​

so creation has different phases and abrogations if you will.
again, how much do we know?

yet we do have a table in our living room.
it's called the universe. we eat on it everyday.

 

It doesn't, It wouldn't, It can't..... This is the entire point..... The universe proves only itself, it's constituents and the mechanics by which it drives itself.
We can only contemplate a creator within it, there is no proof.... If it was created, this is also the design of it's creator that there is no proof.

The laws and mass rely only upon themselves, this is the physical observation by which we can test it....... Again, if it was created... It could not be created any other way, therefore, it is also the design of it's creator to be so.

The only intellectual reality that exists is within proof..... The only thing we are truly able to prove is self and our expressive potential.
What a magnificent gift if this is the design of a creator........
War, anger, strife, static and confusion..... These have all come from those who seek to define a creator, ascribe to it an absolute, bind it within the pages of a book, place it within the cages of the mind......
Provide the universe with any attribute you desire, but celebrate it through your own voice of expression; it is the only proof you have!

 

What if the creator was so expansive, 'they' could speak to the individual expression without the need for an organized thought?..... having placed themselves within the mind since it's very conception.

That would certainly be a peaceful realization if that's the case.

 

This might impact the thought, does it alter the brilliance to be had within it in contemplation, regardless of what one desires to attribute it to?

 

How about this from a different concept?

I find that no matter where I search, the solution is always the same..... Magnificent!

Prove yourself!

 

and this is the only proof he asks.
free will + intelligence and all perceptive senses.

as you said war and confusion is our work, not his.
his system works perfectly, except us (?).

we are clueless of our own purpose to be here.

how many of us have actually took the possibility of a guidance
seriously? we see and judge from a distance. we watch people
fighting with each other and it seems like all of this is to win a silly
"who's book is better?" contest...

most of us get too disgusted of what we see, we don't even want
to approach the concept of an organized religion nor to seek what
all this fuss is all about.

do you think the creator would just create all of this and leave us
with no clue or drawn path in this foreign environment?

it doesn't fit the concept of a designer,
for we are a part of the design too.

since every single thing has a job to do, and fills a certain gap.
animals, stars, clouds, microbes, water, ozon layer, sun, so on...

my belief is, and i am convinced, they distorted the one
message he sent down over and over and over... until the qur'an.

you should look into it but the pattern is recognisable.

of course, you won't take this view seriously.
most people are fed up with fairy tales and illogical notions
they inserted in the bible and the old testament, now no one
can have a fresh look at the qur'an.

i know people who reject the possibility without even opening
one page, let alone reading it cover to cover.

ironically, those who defend the critical thinking so passionately
would rather believe on what they see on the tv. or what other
people repeats like a parrot...

back to subject:

2:30
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels,
"Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They
said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein
and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?"
Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

[SIZE="1"]http://quran.com/2[/SIZE]​

indeed, why make us viceroys,
while we shed blood and cause corruption?

that's an interesting discussion...
if you wanna go a bit off topic, that is.

 

Your objectivity is ruined by the fact that you assume your belief is true and then apply logical fallacies ad infinitum from there. To be honest, it is rather boorish. It would not be quite as bad if your rambles were actually on topic, but they are not.

I don't care about failed arguments, arguments from ignorance, and your particular god of the gaps: allah.

This thread is about delusion from reality especially pertaining to anti-science fanaticism. If you have anything to contribute to that, then by all means give it a try.

The Middle East used to be the intellectual center of the world with advances in math and science. The majority of the stars in the night sky have Arabic names, algebra is an Arabic word. You can divulge yourself into all the details.

That all came to an abrupt stop. Imam Hamid al-Ghazali is the Islamic scholar you have to thank. He turned Islam into the anti-scientific and disgraceful religion it has been for the last eight centuries.

And so it is that you are here participating in this thread as the hero of anti-science.

 

Do you not wish to respond to the post you specifically asked from me?

http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/229639-anosognosia-power-belief.html#post1060810748

 

So what are YOU doing here but squawking?

If you declare an absolute such as the one you have, bound within the pages of a book..... You are destined for one thing, finding an opponent of it.....

If you were the owner and author of every offering of expression, applying to the observational brilliance surrounding every one of us..... There is no opponent beyond the one who seeks to fill your mouth with their words.​

 

You use an example where there is brain damage that causes a discrepancy in ones perception...... Then you use an example where the mechanics of every brain use visual perception over sound to process information..... Not that riveting in understanding vision is a dominant sensory component of the nervous system.
How you then compare any of it to a concept of delusion is obscure to say the least..... Do we have the propensity to 'adapt', even within a comparison to a 'superior' model to 'maladapt' the sensory operations of the brain to match our environment or perception?

OK..... And?
And then we enter the old adage..... Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Ignorance within concepts of religion come first in the comparative example you are attempting; completely independent from the mechanics of the brain you are using.

 

It is the hubris of humans to think of such things as just an illusion, of course it can't be a brain failure; humans are intelligent! What is a delusion if you cannot recognize that to be? There are sound waves that the ear transit as signals in which the brain interprets as sound that you “hear” in your head. Yet sensory of photons in the eye manipulates an orthogonal sensory related to pressure gradients in the air to be something it is not. When I refer to delusion, that is explicitly what I mean: the brain generating experience that is not congruent with reality.

Whether or not someone agrees with your interpretation of your faith or non-faith is independent of delusions with reality. This thread isn't about the belief-structure itself as a delusion. It is about people whose belief-structure at least appears to make them delusional to reality. There is a conceptual difference there.

 

The reality is that we placed an image to a sound of similar qualities that didn't match, and the dominant sensory component of the nervous system won in it's processing of the information provided.
So what are we declaring here, that those who adhere to foolish notions within belief lack a dominant sensory component of the brain that should make it apparent?
When we read words, we don't actually see every letter.... We have key letter recognition within spatial relation, where our brain processes it.
You can actually jumble a word keeping those critical key letter components in place and still understand every word that has been jumbled.
So then do we say, that the mind is deluded by the fact that the word itself is gibberish?

It is true that when conducting such a study, there are those who process this spatial recognition much quicker..... This is not due to the base mechanics of the brain, but in general the learned characteristic of the brain to connect firing of neurotransmitters in the brain...... information.

How much is genetic and how much is learned? Each one has a profound influence on the development of the brain......
When we begin to look at the physiology of the brain where convolutions are concerned enabling quick firing and cognitive response.... Wow, are we able to advance the brain independent from simple genetics by evolving thought alone?
Then we begin to think, how much influence does the possible advancement of the brain have upon our physical form?
Can it then remove all physical malformation as it evolves within offspring generation to generation?

 

Enter Emotion.....

What of emotion paired with the advancement of intellect, how do you think it would translate to offspring?

 

The example only illustrates the concept. It does not define it. This is the weakness of example as well as analogies. You delve too deep into the specifics of a singular example. What is important is to recognize that the brain manipulates experience, it doesn't matter how. The other example was the blind spot in the center of vision as a rudimentary form of hallucination.

So to say that there must be a dominant sensory component over another sensory component is the mistake of definition by example. There can be any manner of ways in which the brain manipulates experience into what can be consider a form of delusion.

In order for it to be a false experience, the brain would have to be unaware that the words it is reading are misspelled. Do you not agree? I am familiar with the example you are giving, but I am also aware that in my experience, I was aware of the jumbled state of the words even though it was within my ability to decipher their intended order. So I am failing to understand how this qualifies as a false experience.

This is gobbledygook. Which probably means you are going on a tangent into philosophy. Is any of that relevant to this thread?

I think you generally find that well developed minds are challenged from an early age onwards, then there is a gradient from some challenge in development all the way to almost abusive neglect and finally the mentally deficient cretins are suffered from mental scaring of fear monger indoctrination.

 

every idea has an opponent whether it's in a book or not.
we live in the universe of opposites?

read the qur'an from that perspective then.

all atheists cry about how religious people claim their book
is the right one and others aren't...

let me ask you this then;
do you not realize that atheists, agnostics or even deists when they
claim their opinions, don't they think that they are "right" and others
who follow a religion aren't?
don't they look down on religious people?

please...

to be perfectly honest i've met few atheists who are open minded
in that sense. they are as bigot as some religious people...

you might say that atheists don't go as far as cauising wars due to
their disbelief/belief... like religious people.
that's because they don't have the power yet. thus;

"the need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind". (albert camus)

or an anti-hero of science.

i don't see religion and science separate.
the source is the same to me.

i realize my posts are pointless.
a narrow mind is a narrow mind.

you boys clash your evidences.

 

First, I am not an atheist..... But nonetheless, I will answer this from my own mind and my own voice of expression.....

I was not favored by anyone beyond chance that my parents are beautiful and developed my mind to think for itself; that I was nurtured by them and exposed to an expression of their love that taught me how to embody the same.

I was not created a vessel of God's mercy amongst his vessels fitted for destruction

I am not righteous and I am not worthy in the presence of those declared to be unrighteous and unworthy.... These are religious concepts of worth.

I was taught that every life is worth everything; that when the rest of the world says I am reaching down, that I am in fact reaching up.

I was taught that I am a part of a great body of expression which is humanity, deny a single life within it and I am denying my own being.

When I say that I was taught, I was not taught these words, only to find them within my own voice.

I am in no way suggesting that these words fill your mind or your voice, to me there is no absolute for the expression of love.... It is much too magnificent to fit into a box, a book or a single mind.....
I am the author of these words, this is an offering of who I am..... Do what you will with it, it is your burden to tell me who I am is wrong; a burden that is impossible for me to contain.

 

I was watching Joel Osteen's Ministry last night..... It was a huge stadium filled to to gills with followers and probably 100's of thousands listening in.....
He likened himself and his congregation to that of eagles soaring high above the buzzards, crows and turkeys below them.....
I was filled only with a great sadness for his mind, that the expressions of love within humanity are so incomplete.