Are soldiers really serving their country?

But you specifically said your rights were violated. I am still waiting to hear how your rights were violated.

And you really need to learn the difference between "fact" and "opinion". However, having spent the last 5 years living less then 10 miles from the deadliest city in the world, I personally have no issue with considering drug dealers and trafficers "terrorists".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...urdered-women/2012/05/07/gIQA1rqb8T_blog.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-14/worst-atrocities-in-mexicos-drug-war/4008878

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-14/mutilated-bodies-dumped-on-mexican-highway/4008820

So if you ask me, I say "good job, keep it up".

As for Anwar al-Awaki, oh please. Already arrested in Yemen for kidnapping for ransom and conspiracy to commit kidnappings, he was released on the condition that he would no longer support or encourage terrorists. That promise lasted less then a week after his release. He supported, protected, and recruited members for al-Qaeda. And at the time of his death, he was wanted by the Yemeni government, convicted in absentia for suporting and aiding terrorists.

ANd killed with him were at least 30 other members of al-Qaeda.

So you may see him as some kind of innocent martyr. But in reality he was hip deep in terrorism, and wanted by at least 3 nations (the US, Saudi Arabia and Yemen).

He did not live in the US, and was not killed in the US. And even if he was simply captured, there would have been nothing preventing his being turned over to Yemeni officials so they could have carried out his execution. So what "Constitutional Rights" does he have, and how were they violated?

Or do you just enjoy defending and protecting terrorists?

 

Actually, he had already had a trial, and was found guilty.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...s-American-devils-must-die/UPI-61991289245343

In Yemen, he had already been tried and convicted in the kidnapping and murder of a French engineer. And he was already wanted by that nation on a "dead or alive" bounty. He was not only a terrorist, but an international fugitive.

You can dismiss this however you want, but do not forget you brought him up, not me. This "innocent" person is involved in much more then Fort Hood.

He was the recruiter of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the "Christmas underwear bomber".

Sharif Mobley, another US born Yemeni was captured by Yemeni law enforcement with 11 other al-Qaeda members. He murdered a guard during a failed escape attempt. He claims al-Awlaki and his speeches as his inspiration for joining al-Qaeda.

Faisal Shahzad, the Times Square Bomber was a self-proclaimed follower of al-Awlaki. His attempted car bombing was his way of conducting the "holy war on the west".

Has issued multiple Fatwās, calling on the death of multiple individuals, including cartoonists.

 

Then Yemen should have got him. As a US citizen he needs to be found guilty through our courts before we give him the death penalty. And we don't, legally, administer this punishment by the use of predator drones.

 

Look, I do not care what nationality a terrorist is. He can be British, Yemeni, Russian, German, Martian, I really do not care. This is somebody who preached mas murder to his followers, and was a convicted terrorist and murderer. Fine, you like to defend the scum of the Earth. No problem, somebody has to. But do not expect me to feel anything for this piece of filth, no matter what nation he comes from.

He was a piece of garbage, and he has now been taken out like garbage. Before anybody gets all "holier then thou", they should consider what he did. This man had been on the run for years, ordered the assasination and murder of dozens of people, and actively recruited for terrorist organizations. To me this was simply a target of war, plain and simple. If he had not been doing what he was doing, he would still be alive to this day.

Asking me to feel pity or remorse for a terrorist is like asking me to feel pity for a rapist or child molestor. They got what they deserved, and the world is a better place without them.

I helped lead to a 16 year old kid getting a 25 year prison sentence. Think I feel any pity for him either? Hell no, he should have thought more before doing the things he did.

 

The U.S. considers itself - rightly or wrongly - to engaged in a war with al quaida. It's members, regardless of citizenship, are enemies in the war and, as such subject to being killed. It is no different than any other war.

How would you "turn him over" to the Yemenis. Would you call them on the phone and tell them you are turning him over. Short of invading Yemen there wouldn't be anyway to capture him beyond doing what the militar did in Pakistan with OBL. The result would be the same. Killed by American military munitions.

There is no question that war is an ugly thing. I know. I've experienced one.

 

Actually, not quite true. When I was overseas, we were told not to go into certain areas and to avoid others because of known al-Qaeda operatives or supporters. And it was not hard to tell in some areas that they were supporters.

The actual war is not against the "members", but the "active members". Much like the Nazi Party after WWII. The Allied powers did not care if you were a membr of the Nazi Party, the party had millions of members. But if you were one of those that was active and made decisions that might constitute war crimes, then they certainly cared.

 

(*)(*)(*)(*) the rule of law. Whatever you can get from the state is what you deserve.

 

You've yet to prove he's a terrorist. That's not how the law works. We don't just decide people are terrorists without giving them a trial just because we don't like the accusatory words they speak of our government. Our government is not the people of the United States. They can be holding the monopoly on global terrorism without Americans being terrorists. However, accepting the status quo does make one an accomplice, ignorance to the truth or not, it's no excuse.

 

For one, you seem to be vastly confused.

We are not talking about law enforcement. We are talking about a military operation. And I do not care if somebody is a "terrorist" or not. If he holds a gun pointed at me, i take him down. It is not my job to "arrest", "Detain", and put him on "trial". That is not what the military does.

And if people are trainin others to conduct operations like blowing up police stations, going to schools to learn how to build explosives, and things like that, I consider them "terrorists". We do not bother with trials, this once again is not a law enforcement situation. I guess in your book we should do the same thing to the pirates off Somalia, and those that are destroying large areas of Mexico also.

Maybe we should have done the same thing in Germany during WWII. Conduct that as a law enforcement operation, not a military one. Try to peacefully round up all the German Soldiers I guess, and charge them with "Trespassing".

 

WWII has nothing to do with it. In fact it does, but can be used in my argument.

During WWII jews were persecuted.

Right now, Muslims are persecuted in the name of cultural regime changes regionwide and control of resources.

So how do illegal imperialistic wars justify denying Americans their due process?

 

Not only Jews, but Romani, Homosexuals, Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, and a great number of other groups. But this was by a homocidal nation, not the United States.

And Muslims are being persecuted? Where are the concentration camps? Where are the max ejections from the US of Muslims? We still have more trying to enter the US then ever before.

How many Jews tried to enter Germany in 1936? Not many I bet.

Sorry, I consider this another fail. And if an AMerican is hanging out with terrorists, I consider him or her to be a terrorist also and should be treated no different. After all, it is a combat zone. And bombs do not ask to see passports.

 

And those who tried to help those people by resisting the Nazis were labelled terrorists and summarily executed if caught. Had the Nazis modern day firepower, they would have used drones and other tools to eliminate the threats. Can you say that they were wrong to do so, and, if so, by what principle?

 

A-freaking-men. What is it about this sub-forum that attracts the crazies?

 

There are a lot of people who relish the opportunity to "confront" active duty military and veterans. They get off on it.

 

It seems like we can never have an honest discussion and it's too bad. I know there are more moderate "anti-military" types out there who are at least reasonable and willing to have a logical debate with plenty of supporting information. That would be a hell of a lot more fun because these people could be "converted" and MAYBE even alter my viewpoints . These tinfoil wearing crazies we get are no fun. You need a common foundation of reasonableness between both parties to have an effective debate. These people are up swimming with the stars. I've noticed that half of all threads in this sub-forum are started by Horhey and are FULL of pages and pages documenting U.S. conspiracies. The guy has started almost 20 threads here in the last month.

 

Oh, it is like that everywhere.

No joke, I just got back from reporting in at my reserve unit. While driving down the I-580 towards San Jose, I passed a V-8 Lexus with about every "Leftist" bumpersticker you could imagine. "Change", "I Want Democracy Now", "Stop The War On Drugs", etc. And as I drew alongside, some 40-something looked over at me and seeing me in uniform flipped me the bird. I just smiled and waved back at him (I however used all my fingers).

I noticed before I paid attention to his driving that he looked rather surprised. I myself do not get off on confrontation, and enjoy being as friendly as I can when faced with hostility. AM am not going to get into a pissing contest with brainless individuals like that.

 

We keep invading Muslim nations based on lies and propaganda. Iraq for WMD's, turns out they didn't exists, hundreds of thousand Iraqis slaughtered due to the lying tyrannical government ruling us who turned out to be worse than Saddam from most Iraqis opinions. We are fighting Al Qaeda, whom we assisted in Libya and looks like repeating the process in Syria, whilst simultaneously fighting them in other nations. Face it, every thing we've been told about this War of Terrorism is a lie and the United States is a global terrorist empire that is fueled by the blood of innocents and must be stopped but won't do so willingly.

 

Afghanistan
Iraq
Palestine
Lybia
Yemen
Somalia
Phillipines
Pakistan

Soon to be Syria, Iran.

Saudi Arabia
Qatar
Bahrain
Pre-Revolution Egypt

Guantanamo Bay


If the American government was so sure Alawi was a terrorist, why didn't they allow him a trial in America, and decide to execute him instead?

You think it is okay that America feels it has the right to kill whoever it wants, simply using the term "terrorist" to justify it?

 

See, there is propaganda in the United States period, and it's very effective I would argue. But the most propagandized segment of the American public, in my opinion, is the United States Armed Forces. These people are in it so thick that you'll almost never get through to them. On top of that, they oftentimes don't want to know the truth because then they'll have to come to the grim realization that they are the vessel being used to put into action the terrorist policies being made by those occupying DC. They will then, when eyes opened, have to come to the realization that they are not fighting for the freedom of all Americans, but quite to the contrary, to their eventual enslavement or at the very least severe loss of liberties and freedom. They will have to come to the understanding that they are not America's heroes. That's not so glamorous, and that doesn't help one to sleep at night. The lie is easier and will suffice for most of them.

 

And that is why many soldiers, when they done their service in the army, have mental issues and come back as different people.

You cannot hide the truth from your conscience.

How many soldiers who fought in Vietnam killed themselves after? Soldiers are indoctrinated with propoganda, to hate those they have to kill, so that the trigger finger twitches easier, without any second thoughts or doubts.

Fortunately not every soldier is like this.

 

A significant portion believe they are "defending America". Another very significant portion just do not concern themselves about the morality of their activities one way or another. They look at it as an "I'm just doing my job" approach. And then you have the minority, whom their conscience eats up. Nothing is fortunate about this, not enough people are awake and not enough people will be awake in the foreseeable future.

 

Every single time.

The fact is, the globalized economy, which lifts the quality of life of almost everyone on the globe, including workers in 3rd world countries whose products we buy, requires a generally stable globe. Economic activity cannot occur in a warzone on any kind of organized level above that of cottage industry and there are alot of world leaders out there who would love to invade their neighbors and take their resources for their own people and the deterrence of us prevents it.

Without McDonnel Douglas, McDonald's couldn't exist in countries around the world.

Our Navy for instance, protects the Sea lanes from encroachment by expansionist nations who are looking to steal mineral and fishing rights from other nations. The only thing preventing China from outright annexing the Spratley Islands and the entire South China Sea, is us. Plain and simple. Should we just let them gobble up other nations ocean real estate?

I mean really, America's economy is the most reliant on globalization out of any other nation on earth. It is our military that ensures the stability of that economy. To pretend that America's economy can exist in some kind of vacuum and that our military presence is only a bane upon mankind is an outright total lie. Protecting American prosperity in general requires protecting the globalized economy.

I'm sick of ignorant people who claim that the Cold War and fighting Communism wasn't important. I'm sick of ignorant people saying that Communism wasn't a threat and therefore America should've just let Communists take over half the freaking planet.

I don't understand where this attitude came from, who invented that lie or managed to spread it around that America was at fault for most of the cold war and we had no right to stop it from expanding.

Ridiculous. Defense of the Globalized Economy = Defending America

You need to read about Hegemonic Stability Theory.

 

Oh yes, we are persecuting Muslims everywhere. I am surprised you did not add Bosnia to that as well.

And yea, we had death camps set up all over Egypt. And also in Qatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc, etc, etc.

Complete and utter nonsense. If you can't come back with facts instead of horrible propaganda, do not even bother.

 

Sort of off topic but just asking the soldiers here, all former and current who/ or what do you feel your loyalty was to while you served?
Second do you feel it was right to place your loyalty with them/that or should you have placed loyalty somewhere/with someone else?
And finally for the longer serving soldier how do you feel about former enemies becoming allies and vice-versa?