Australia learned the hard way...don't confuse Trump with a chump.

Malcolm is already planning the dinner.

 

I hope the Pres. does take the deal and put them all in the LA/Hollywood/Beverley Hills area.

 

It's illustrative of how much political mileage has been made here from whipping up public fear of immigrants in general and Muslim immigrants in particular. So much mileage, that the only way the Coalition could diffentiate itself from Labor was to come out with the NEVER EVER SET FOOT IN AUSTRALIA bit. They backed themselves into a very shameful corner.

A quick read through the posts on this thread - starting with the OPs- shows how much political mileage is being made out of immigrants and refugees all around the world. They're all labelled "potential terrorists", straight up and straight faced, in countries founded and built by immigrants and refugees.

 

What " serious threat from China" would that be, Steve? Other than an economic one if China experiences a downturn or stops trading with us? What aggression has China shown, exactly?

 

Fair enough. But it's the politicians who first and foremost don't want to let the refugees in rather than the Australian population. Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying a lot of the population, particularly the biggest voting demographic, aren't going along with it. Like the UK, the EU and the US, anti-immigrant and anti-refugee hysterical rhetoric has been rammed down Australian throats for decades. Now, it's anti-Muslim hysteria. Before that, it was anti-Asian hysteria- particularly anti-Vietnamese. A lot of political mileage has been made out of it for a very long time. There's nothing new about it. In the US currently, it's resulted in the Muslim ban.

It's a great distraction. People are so busy hating immigrants and refugees, they fail to notice political economic policies that cause jobs to disappear and standards of living to decline.

The tragedy is the immigrants and refugees happen to be real, living, breathing, flesh and blood human beings- many of them fleeing countries we either directly or indirectly destabilised and destroyed.

Once upon a time- straight after the Second World War - politicians welcomed them. The people didn't particularly. We labeled them "wogs" and "dagoes", reckoned they didn't try to assimilate, didn't even really try to learn the language, lived in their own little enclaves and had weird customs that were unAustralian ( unAmerican, unBritish etc ), especially religious customs, but capitalism needed their labour, so the people got over their dislike of anyone different and accepted refugees and immigrants amongst them.

But capitalism doesn't need immigrants and refugees to man its businesses in the West anymore. Hell, there's not enough work for the people who were born here! So the people of the West must be encouraged, loudly and often, to hate and fear immigrants and refugees. We must see them all as "potential terrorists". Otherwise, we might start asking really basic questions, like why do people leave their homes en masse in the first place?

 

Not me Mike, I have nothing but contempt for our federal government and in particular for its policies towards refugees. Trump and Turnbull can sort it out between them, I have no time for either.

 

The TPP negotiated by our government basically shafted the rest of us to give our primary producers better access to the US markets (among others). Trump pulled the US out and saved us from the stupidity of our own government. They will not be able to resist his blandishments.

 

He has absolutely zero diplomacy and that is scary in itself. I don't think he has an idea of what it is or why it's important. The guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and therefore had little need for diplomacy. I think you guys in the US are in trouble and I certainly don't say that lightly. Congress will have to be your saviour. It's funny how a population takes on the manner of its leader and in this instance that's even more worrisome. I personally was making a trip to the US this year for the umpteenth time but have to decided I could not support a country whose president openly talks about grabbing women in their most private parts. I think America has lost the plot. Obama brought back credibility and respect internationally but unfortunately that looks to be undone once agin!

 

That does not seem to be the history of US deals.

- - - Updated - - -

Well I'm clear on why Australia wanted it. I've just never heard or had explained how the deal benefits the US. At all. It seems like a one way sucker's deal.

 

I would never presume to speak for all Americans and so can only speak for myself when I say that it isn't just about terrorism. I will always welcome any people who want to become Americans and assimilate into our culture and live by laws and legal processes. That isn't what is going on here.

 

Weeeeellll. There is the issue of those islands in the South China Sea

Don't know what they are up to there - but China is not the communist country it once was - increasingly it is being run by monied interests - which has the advantage that they are the LAST people who want war, with the exceptions of arms manufacturers of course (but most of them are in America - which explains a LOT)

 

We actually weren't all that welcoming to immigration after the war - remember the embarrassing "white Australia policy"?

That horrible bit of history actually included a lot of Meditierranean people in the ban. There had to be quite a bit of footwork to get Italian and Greek immigration accepted here. "Wog Land" was an accepted epithet. Then came the Vietnamese boat people and all of the concern around them

Then we decided we would become "multicultural" and SBS was born. Admittedly originally SBS stood for Sex Before Soccer since thay were the primary things shown - but it was the flagship for where we wanted to go. And NOTHING sells in australia better than Sex and Sport

But now I think we are getting close to a community outlook where variety in culture is not just accepted but gleefully embraced - not truly there yet but it is where I for one would love us to be

 

I will give Mal this much

He is better than Trump

But then so is a four day dead snake stinking in the hot sun

 

And??

Clinton wasn't in favor of the form the TPP took, either. That wasn't an issue of contention.

The real issue is whether we are ready to participate in trade treaties in the Pacific theater.

For that, we need to gain the support of nations - such as Australia.

Instead, we're driving Pacific nations toward China's leadership.

 

I think if I was China- isolated for decades pretty much, the only Communist nation left in the region other than apparently peculiar North Korea and the world other than Cuba and North Korea, doing quite nicely economically and still out from under the boot of American capitalism and "expansionism" ( ie imperialism), and the USA had just spent years rattling the sabre at me, hypocritically haranguing me about my human rights record while their hands are covered in blood from civilians all around the world, surrounding me with military bases and conducting military exercises just off my borders with Australia that were clearly aimed at provoking me- I'd be paranoid enough to set up man made islands to fortify my defences too, particularly when I haven't threatened or aggressed anyone for many decades.

I just don't see China as a threat. I can see them being provoked by us into becoming one, but I hope they keep cool heads and don't take the bait.

 

The TPP wasn't a trade treaty, it was a big capital investment pact. It benefited investors- banks, corporations- not nations and not people. It would have permitted any nation's sovereignty to be disregarded if it interfered with the ability of global corporations to make a buck. One of the major issues was it would have allowed global pharmaceutical corporations to force sovereign nations with single payer health services ( most of the civilised world) to pay whatever the corporations could bleed out of them.

Americans such as yourself may value the freedom of global corporations to make profits over and above national sovereignty, but fortunately for us all, our politicians and your politicians didn't, or rather, they couldn't be seen to once the details were leaked and the public learned they were about to lose their national sovereignty and any hope of regulated capitalism. Any politician stupid or arrogant enough to continue supporting it would have lost their political careers. Hilary Clinton rejected the TPP October 2015, after the public learned what the TPP really was. Before that she called it "the gold standard".

"Instead, we're driving Pacific nations toward China's leadership." you said.

What does that even mean, seriously? What do you mean by "leadership"? China has been one of Australia's and the US's largest trading partners for decades, but I haven't noticed either nation going communist, have you? Our leaders aren't quoting Mao's Little Red Book. Ditto China's trading partners throughout the Asia-Pacific: I haven't noticed any Asian-Pacific nations succumbing to the communist domino effect for half a century.

Why shouldn't Asia-Pacific nations borrow money from China, particularly if it means they won't be hit with the double whammy of public austerity and the compulsory privatisation of resources and utilities the World Bank and Wall Street peddle?

Why shouldn't they put people before someone else's profit if they can and are willing to do so? God knows it probably won't be possible for long, not the way your current administration intends to ramp up the military big time and prosecute a war with China.

The US aggression towards China is about wanting to flog its breed of capitalism and maintain its hegemony and unfortunately for us all, the bulk of that hegemony is based on the military/industrial complex. Rip a country to shreds then hold a smash and grab fire sale. The US has two nationalised industries: Wall Street and war. Private prisons may be a third, one my government shamefully bought franchise rights in.

It's not about "leadership", "democracy" or "human rights". It's about trying to open China up - by force, if necessary- to make a buck. American aggression hasn't been about anything else for donkey's years.

 

"Assimilate" is a word in common parlance in Australia, too. It seems to mean be exactly like we are. Adopt our values ( which never are and never can be defined, values being an intensely personal thing) and observe our customs, including saying "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Easter", not "Happy holidays", stuff like that.

Seriously, I spent Christmas with my elderly mother. She listens to a lot of talk back radio and I lost count of how many times I heard that definition of assimilation, along with gripes that the shopping malls weren't playing Christmas carols because of the Muslims, even though the shopping malls were so full on with the bloody Christmas carols I nearly went nuts. Is there anything worse than cheap and nasty Christmas carols from a CD someone found in the $2 bin?

The other common gripe was that Muslim women should be forced to assimilate and go without their niquabs and hijabs because it's unAustralian. I would imagine forcing a Muslim woman to do that would be like forcing me to display my 51 year old body in the supermarket in a bikini, but assimilation is assimilation, so stuff modesty and screw human rights, yeah?

Excuse the rant, glloydd. I completely believe you are an American of good will with a big heart and every inclination to welcome everybody, but assimilation is a slippery little devil of a concept. It sounds innocent and friendly, but it can hide some very ugly human traits.

Once upon a time, my nation and yours didn't feel the need for immigrants to assimilate. We accepted their culture as part of them - not particularly graciously, it's true- and came to see cultural diversity as a plus that enriched us all. Look at all the restaurants from all over the world, Jewish bakeries and Chinese New Year celebrations, just to name a few. I'm sure you can think of a lot more.

We managed this in the past with other cultures and religions, it took time and familiarity, but we got there. We can manage it again because most of us are like you and I: people of good will, inclined to welcome everybody and wish them well, more interested in what we have in common than where we differ, given half the chance. We're a social species.

 

From what I understand China has been buying up Australia for some time and not too long ago Aussies were complaining about that.

BTW: Why would the US want the refugees Australia wants to get rid of?

 

I've heard that rumour too. Supposedly the terrible Chinese are buying up all the Australian land, all the houses, everything!

There's not much reality in it and to be perfectly honest with you I'm more concerned about some of the real estate sites the US owns here, the ones that make Australia a potential target for a nuke, particularly now that the US has done a "pivot to Asia to confront China", as Obama put it. Particularly in view of the Trump administrations belligerent comments about China. Hopefully, it's all (*)(*)(*)(*) and wind from the current administration to please the folks back home, just as it appears to have been with the former administration. Hard to say. China's been on the US hit list for a while, hasn't it?

There's a lot of racism and fear of "the other" behind the fuss about Chinese investment in Australia and a bit of anti-China propaganda's been around, too, as befits a capitalist state that engaged in provocative military exercises with the US just outside China's borders last year. The US did its pivot thing and denounced China, so Australia followed suit to a degree. It's also a hangover from the Cold War, not to mention a persistent mind set to excuse our behaviour in Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia and Asia generally. Behaviour we still indulge in, by the way. We may not do the actual killing ourselves, but we look the other way while others do it to protect our commercial interests real good. Ask East Timor and West Papua. We can justify it all because China. Nobody wants the Asia-Pacific region to fall under the spell of the heathen Chinese. Far better for them to remain under the guidance of good, clean, moral capitalism.

And like Americans, we need someone to blame for everything and our politicians give us every assistance to make sure it isn't them, so why not China? No skin off the politicians noses if we hate and fear China. In fact, it's useful. The politicians are unlikely to send us off to fight China's wars for it, so there's no need to portray them as good guys. It won't affect trade one way or the other if we think the Chinese are bad.

Funny. It was Russia for a while there that was bad, but it seems to be dying down now. Russia must have turned over a new leaf. Apparently we're working towards detente again now. Unless it's just because I don't read, watch or listen to MSM and I've missed the latest updates on Putin Satan and the evil USSR excuse me Russia.

Australia's major investors are (in order) the US, the UK, Belgium, Japan and Singapore. China comes in at number 7.

As for your question. Firstly, Australia could ask the US exactly the same question. It was a straight out swap- our refugees for your refugees. Secondly, you did notice they are refugees, right? and thirdly, ask Turnbull and Obama why they made the deal. It sickens me that a multi billionaire and multi millionaire were base enough to make deals about some of the most destitute people on Earth like they were playing poker for nickels and dimes. Quite frankly, I don't believe America should be taking our refugees and I don't believe we should be taking yours.

I personally lobby pretty hard to have the people stranded in limbo on Manus and Nauru settled here in Australia, and though I understand the political mileage made out of them it turns my stomach. It’s just so damn easy to whip up a lovely, distracting case of hate and fear, isn't it? Keeps 'em on their toes with their eyes firmly closed.

We've already killed one refugee, did you know? 24 years of age and we let him die in agony from sepsis from an untreated, infected cut on his foot. And then there's the woman we permitted to be raped. She was impregnated and we denied her justice of any kind. We even denied her an abortion and/or counselling, despite her wanting both. Then there are the kids who have been sexually abused. All the beatings. We're well on our way to killing another one. A pregnant woman. She has gestational diabetes, pre-eclampsia and bub's breach. We're denying her medical attention. Apparently we have to be cruel to be kind.

The amazing thing is the stories get out at all. All the staff working in the camps ( read: prisons) have been put on gag orders by the government, even the doctors. If they speak out, they risk prison. Thankfully, whistle blowers are braver than the rest of us.

I'm so proud to be an Australian. So proud to live in the glorious, democratic, civilised world . Thank God I wasn't born in an uncivilised hell hole like China. Just look at their human rights abuses! They're animals!

 

I think Chinese investors were the largest single group of investors in our commercial and development site buying list last year, accounting for some 30+% of transactions.

Although the rate of land buy up by Chinese investors is slowing, it is still solid across the board. I imagine it is happening across the globe.

The Chinese won't need to go into a military battle with us, they only need to flash their cash, and we grab it as fervently as a two dollar whore looking for the next hit.

 

The Chinese don't want to go to war with us, Slipperyfish. They’re not the ones trying to pick fights.

 

Never said they did. Problem is your interpretation of my statement.

 

I never said you did, either. I didn't misinterpret your statement, I just used it to make my one of my own. Perrhaps it's because I'm weary of being told to be afraid of nations that aren't threatening my own week in week out, particularly when they change so often. Makes me dizzy.

 

Alibaba set up headquarters in Melbourne recently, there were a lot of noise from Australian retailers because they simply can't compete with Alibaba. Week later Jack Ma donates A$26 million to one of our Universities....made all the noise go away.

 

Obama was moving you towards acceptable, in general, the attitude of a significant proportion of Americans is unacceptable to any intelligent rational moral person.
The health care is only for the well off, it is outrageously expensive.
A significant number of people (hmmm lol), are so insecure of both their fellow citizens and or their government, and have an over inflated sense of their own importance and ability, that they need to carry all sorts of ridiculous weapons.
The US has either directly or indirectly started or caused just about every major conflict they have been in, especially the war against Japan and the war against terror.
If the US does take these refugees, and treats them with all due respect, the majority will most probably make at least as good a citizen as you.
As for a threat form China..What planet did you say you were from again?
As for Russia no brown nosing there from our government, Trump's is already there. Any problems, we just send Tony to shirttail him.
San Francisco is nice, much nicer than LA or Vegas.