Australia to sign up to China Bank>>MOD WARNING<<

Well then its meaningless at a nation level unless you specify the circumstances.... these things don't happen in isolation. The best way is to look at 'intention', and invasion to occupy is a clear intention. Things like bombing etc require more information to understand intention. It might be convenient to ignore intention if your point is biased delusion, but if your being adult about the topic then it pays to look into it a bit more. For example Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos was 'all' about stopping Communism and Communist China from taking other people territory. The US could have stayed and 'won' but by that time the world had changed and they didn't have the same military imperative as they did when it started, and unfortunately for SEAsia the rot of communism and crime was too deep thanks to that original Chinese intention and his efforts to drive it. Why do you call the US a terrorist country, do you even know what the word means!?

 

Since I'm backing China against America, that's your job.
Of course, you don't want to because, when compared to wars the US has started or entered since 1945, your list is going to look pitifully short.
I challenge you to post it, but I know you won't.

 

Ok, I'll start with one.
The US mass murders in Indonesia.
The CIA, intent on changing the Indonesian government, attacked Indonesia and killed a lot of Christian civilians.
Indonesia was absolutely no danger to the US, nor were any of the people your CIA murdered.

Please attempt to justify that terrorist attack, and US interference in a sovereign country's politics.
http://www.workers.org/indonesia/chap2.html

Because the US attacks countries it isn't at war with, and mass murders civilians.
Sounds a like like terrorists acts to me.

 

I love America as a place, but not as a polity or society. I like the Chinese as a group. I admire their culture and am fascinated by their history.

Indonesia I don't care for. It's treatment of the Chinese living in Indonesia has been discriminatory and at times even genocidal.

Btw, who do you think has the best claim to ownership of Arunachal Pradesh? India or China?

 

I see it this way, if you lose a point, just admit it instead of changing the subject.
As for Indonesia, the Chinese were treated very badly under the US backed dictator, but things are far better now.

 

Arunachal Pradesh is probably Chinese.
Tibet, whilst rejecting Chinese rule, has been part of China since around 1200AD.
Tibet owned that region.
It was't until the poorly run British rule of the area in the 1900s that it was seen as Indian, and the borders weren't enforced.
It seems to be Tibetan land, so we have to decode if Tibet is in China or not.

Is Tibet part of China, or an independent state?
If it's a state, why is it different from the Basque region of Spain or other places with separatist groups?

 

That's not true. Have you forgotten the murders and rapes of Chinese by majority Pribumi Indonesians during the Kerusuhan Mei 1998 riots? The estimated death toll was at least 1,000 Chinese, and there were 87 confirmed rapes of Chinese women. It was all based on hatred for the Chinese. Indonesia has a long history of anti-Chinese sentiment.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ker...=X&ei=9Tk4VfqoAdDbasKNgOgE&ved=0CCUQsAQ&dpr=2

 

The Tibetans probably want self-determination so they can choose their identity. Massive Han immigration to Tibet is making the Tibetans a minority in their own country.

Tibet is to China as Irian Jaya is to Indonesia. It's likely the Papuans of Irian Jaya don't want to be Indonesian.

As far as the Basques are concerned let them have self-determination. The same should be true of the Tibetans and the Papuans of Irian Jaya. The same goes for the residents of Arunachal Pradesh and the Aksai Chin and Kashmir. The model should be Puerto Rico in which the residents chose their identity.

 

And we have some dim-wits in Australia who think Indonesians are all passive flower-power type people playing guitars, and running around handing out flowers and chocolates to everyone.

They only think like this, because Indonesians chuck them a smile, and says "I likey you".

 

Tibet is not China, despite what the Chinese government will try to tell you. China 'occupies' Tibet and will likely continue to do so for a long long time - at the cost of its culture sadly. The government of Tibet prior to the Chinese invasion still exists in exile in India.

Plenty of hard evidence to back that up, do some research if it interests you. It is though in most simple terms evidenced by the fact that China decided to use mechanized Army formations to fight their way across its border with China and pushed on throughout Tibet as part of Mao Zedong grand vision of Chinese Communist empire, and to this day still meet resistance from Tibetans.

 

Errrr no, that is not what the CIA's involvement was in those operations. Your source is very biased and appears to be some sort of communist magazine?? Unfortunately it looks like your information is corrupted and its misleading you, and no, the US has not mass murdered civilians (at least not recently LOL). You'll have to get a real example if you want to be taken seriously by me at least.

 

It's a matter of recorded history, denied by none.
Have the wiki site and, if you don't believe that, googe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Lawrence_Pope

The CIA attacked Indonesia, murdered, and got away clean as far as the world was concerned.
You can do that if you control the propaganda.

Now, admit that case and comment.

 

The fact a number of their group is vocal on that issue doesn't mean the majority want it, nor does it mean they're right to ask for it.

 

You forgot to mention it was Chinese for 800 years, far less time than America has occupied Hawaii for.
However, America ignores pleas for independence from that occupied land.

They claim the freedom movement is a minority, forgetting mass American immigration into Hawaii, making the locals a minority in thior own country.
Given America has done exactly what they're accusing China of, I fail to see the moral high ground for the states in this matter, nor do I see their right to say a word on the subject until the US releases occupied lands, and removes all immigrant families.
Start with US occupied Hawaii.
I suppose you could always have a referendum, but allow the locals to vote this time, and exclude the immigrant families.

 

The same thing could be said about the Palestinians who yearn to be free. How is Chinese occupation of Tibet different than Israeli occupation of Palestine? Both China and Israel say they have historical claims.

 

That's not true. Tibet didn't come under control of China until the Qing Dynasty in the 17th century. And the Qing weren't even Chinese. Prior claims of Chinese control of Tibet are like Israeli claims of prior control of Palestine.

 

When the USA is capable of doing something like this, then only someone with a child-like preception would see them as only doing good, and not capable of doing bad things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

 

Attacking military targets is not terrorism, so you'll need to find something which actually supports your case.

The rebellion in Indonesia was amongst Indonesians, dont be afraid to lame blame where it is due just because you have to accept it was your own countrymen, but also don't then go blame the US for supporting it. If you don't know there was something called the Cold War on at the time, and siding with Communism in the Asian region between the Korean and Vietnam wars means your lucky it was not a lot worse. Perhaps you need to educate yourself on 'why' the Cold War was going on, and look how successful the USSR and China were (not) until they embraced capitalism!?

Your yet to prove the US slaughtered civilians on purpose by any number BTW?

 

What.....an equipment malfunction? Thinking that was the reason for the Vietnam War is like thinking WMD in Iraq was the reason for the removal of Saddam Hussein. It just shows no clue about operational security and strategic imperatives during wartime.

 

Where do you get your information from, the Communist compendium of rewritten history!? Generally speaking it could be seen to be partially true but more often Mongol's then Chinese, but it was not continuous and they didn't occupy the territory... it was more like an ally then a state. The terrain meant the Chinese never really had an easy time projecting any real power over Tibet, so Tibet just carried on running itself and trying to grow like it had always done before with its unique culture - until the industrial era which changed the dynamics of the world hugely, and China now wanted to exert actual control and tried and eventually succeeded in invading and replacing the government of Tibet.... and in the 50's with mechanization they had for the first time a means to invade AND occupy in numbers, so they did.

 

No one denies China existed before 1945 - Israel absolutely didn't.

 

The CIA supported the internal conflict, including using bombers to attack a country the US wasn't at war with, killing civilians.
Please tell me how that isn't murder, regardless of intent.
If they'd hit the intended target, it would still have been murder.

 

China? Which China?

 

Ah, I see the thread has entered the "I can't argue my point so I'll post total crap" stage.
Signs off unless a non moron replies to it.

 

If you were familiar with Chinese history you would understand that China is more than a state. It is also an identity, an empire, a culture and a civilization that has taken many forms since the time of the Yellow Emperor. You don't seem very Chinese. Sometimes Austronesians and Chinese have offspring who have identity problems. Is that what's troubling you?