Bikie Laws - What price for Justice?

Spot on Zig!!

 

I dunno Bowerbird,, for me the jury is still out on the entire affair. On one hand the right of association is being lost and on the other hand 1%ers have been involved with organised crime for decades.

 

Our we just start from old school ,Hate everything about the penal government of NSW ,Queennnnnssland ,ect.

Foul Political establishment ,of a foreign Monarch?!

 

It would have been less show pony and a lot more effective for the Newman govt not to have focused on bikies. Something like the RICO statutes in the US would have been useful. Now it's turned into a showdown between the Newman govt and big blokes on bikes who are also organised criminals. The emphasis should have been on the "organised criminals", not the punch-ups in public places, those can be dealt with by public order laws and banging up a few of them. But then I would never accuse the Newman govt of being competent.

 

Still seem's to be working

 

It's criminal groups that are the target of these changes, as determined by intelligence of their activities. As adult's we get to be responsible for who we choose to associate with, and if anyone thinks 'bikies' as you put it are not involved in organised crime, then either your neglecting that the legislation only effect criminal gangs, ignorant of CMG's, or misrepresenting reality for some false ego.

 

Problem here Diuretic is that the Crims we are talking about here do not give two hoots about public order laws, so that part of your argument means very little. It is not the middle age crisis motorcycle club members that would require ' banging up'. They are not the ones that are shooting at each other in shopping centres or shaking people down in the street. They abide by the laws we have. Unfortunately they also inhabit a hobby that very cruel and unsavoury individuals have made their own. These are the individuals, and there are thousands of them, that are making society less civilised. These fools do not give a rats about laws, so public order laws to them are about as useful as a fork for eating soup.

Are the laws too tough ? Not unless you have something to be guilty of, or are hiding something, or hiding yourself. I hear this 1% crap being bandied around. I tell you what, it is far greater than that. It is a bit hard to swallow that the criminal element is only 1% of the motorcycle club world.

I do believe that our human rights are being eroded, but not just by this one policy. This last year I have heard arguments that the Carbon Tax is for the greater good, and it is something that we need to adjust to as a society. As with most greater good scenarios there is always going to be collateral damage, some one or group disadvantaged, for the 'greater good of society'. Now I see the same proponents on here howling down Newman and his government for actually doing what could be argued to be a similar greater good for society at large.

Funny, it is the same Carbon Tax/ALP supporting individuals that are throwing accusations of rights violations.

Remember money doesn't grow on trees, how are we going to pay for increased policing. Hell they can't even fill the recruit rosters now. Who would want to be a cop ? You have to put up with low lifes spitting at you, swearing at you, abusing you, assaulting you, you have to turn up at homes where dad has beaten his wife and kids, accidents from drink drivers, etc., etc. You make the arrests only to have some mindless turkey throw out your case because you forgot to pass on their rights while they were slapping you and biting you and spitting in your face . Person could be guilty as sin, but the robed fool behind the bench thought you were neglectful in your duty, and the rapist walks only to commit again..... That very night.

More cops..... from where ?

Stick it to them Newman........ At least your doing something !!!

 

So you really think it's okay for a politician to be able to imprison someone indefinitely, with no judicial oversight?

Our governments have plenty of money, enforcing the law is a basic function of government and if they "really" can't afford to do it effectively (which I simply don't believe given all the other crap they spend money on) then they should raise taxes.

And paying taxes is not a violation of human rights and doesn't erode judicial oversight.

 

So, if the club that you are an innocent member of (and there ARE bikie clubs out there which are about as criminal as vintage car clubs) and a law is passed making your club illegal - are you still guilty by association?

 

If the club is being used for criminal activities then you have the choice of leaving the club..... or not and suffer the association.

 

Where do you get this no judicial oversight from ?

What, is Newman just driving around seeing a few people riding a motorbike, pulling them over throwing cuffs on them and throwing them in prison is he ?

No trial ? No right to legal representation ?

The people who are being arrested isnt the sixty year old retired public servant who spent some of his super on a big fatboy. These people that are being arrested are criminals. Known to authorities already.

You lot seem to think it is abhorent that we take away the rights of these animals, but see the consistent criminal activity and endangerment of innocent people as what ? Ok ?

Some would argue that paying taxes doesn't erode human rights. Lol.

 

The 1% is from the emergence of the biker culture in the US, from memory a spokesman for the motorcyclist movement in the US at the time of the first big rumble with bikers (I think it may have involved the founder of Hells Angels Sonny Barger) who said something along the lines of "99 per cent of American motorcycle riders are law-abiding citizens" (or something similar). That enabled Barger and his mates to be the 1% who were not. I'd agree that there could be a higher percentage of OMCG personnel now.

Qld coppers are going to find that, as individuals, they are going to lose their own rights in this blue. Newman will order Stewart who will order the troops to get stuck in. When it hits the fan it won't be Newman and Stewart in the witness box trying to explain some sort of alleged unlawful activity which is claimed to be carried out under what the Americans call the "colour of authority".

Then there's the HCA.

 

Of course "something" should be done about organised crime. But this isn't the way to go about it. This is all about show and possible displacement. My own state brought in tough laws aimed at bikies and Victoria didn't, there was fear of displacement but the Vics wouldn't have the revised laws. Now the laws in SA have been challenged in the HCA and found to be wanting, govt is trying its best to revamp the laws and make them enforceable (not as easy as you'd think either). My point is that govt has to be smart, not loud and boisterous.

 

Diuretic I agree with your points, as usual you put it fairly and concisely. Not for one moment do I believe that Politicians do anything for the good of the people, and are probably bigger criminals than the ones they are targeting. This is a show, but has anyone come up with a better idea ? If so I haven't heard it. It is always easy to point out the problems but when it comes to voicing a solution, the silence is deafening. I agree the cops will be the big losers here. I was talking to a friend that is a police officer and he reckons they can nab them all day long, but the problem is the legal system, they will be released for the smallest issue with the case. He hates judges, he reckons they have no common sense. Hard to argue in light of recent cases.

 

A tiny aside. Your police officer friend doesn't understand the criminal justice system. That's quite common among police officers. Out on the street cops rule (or they should rule - but wisely of course). But once the criminal justice system lumbers into action (usually courtesy of your average police officer) then it takes over and the initiating copper is then just an accessory. Of course some coppers, probably many, maybe the majority, think judges lack common sense, but then judges aren't that concerned about what coppers think of them and they're there to administer the law, not use common sense.

But back to the issue at hand. I remember as a young, about-to-graduate police cadet, being taken up to the (then) Drug Squad office with the rest of my course-mates. We were introduced to a very colourful Detective Sergeant* who ran the Squad (which had been newly formed - this was 1970) and we were given a lecture and demo on the evils of marijuana. We hadn't heard of the stuff (I did say it was a long time ago) and the Det Sgt lit a joint and made us pass it around so we could recognise its distinctive odour (we were counselled against trying it out).

The SA parliament at that time had no specific laws to deal with marijuana use/possession etc. The police used the Poisons Act (which was definitely stretching the fabric of that piece of legislation to breaking point) before the fabulously named "Narcotic and Psychotropic Drugs Act" was proclaimed (to be replaced years later by the definitely less fabulous in name "Controlled Substances Act".

And so the attack on marijuana use began in a very uncertain manner.

Of course as soon as the prohibition started then the suppliers cranked up and the distributors went to work and bingo, in comes organised crime, delivering what people want but can't get due to their understandable aversion to being pinched for doing something to themselves.

The bikies and others got in early and thanked the legislators profusely (but quietly) for setting up their shiny new and very profitable industry.

Those hypocrites in our parliaments who no doubt used dope as younger, non-MP types, are too gutless to reveal the truth to the public, that it's a ruse, a con, a bull(*)(*)(*)(*) set-up and that dope is no worse and no better than liquor. And I say that as someone who has not participated in dope but has given liquor a right hammering over the years. If they removed the prohibition and stigma on substances such as cannabis and educated and regulated everything else and treated the use of crap like ice as a medical problem instead of a criminal problem (same with E and others - educating potential users on the physiological dangers is, I think, better than whizzing them off either to the ER or the slammer), then we would cut the feet out from under the crooks. Sure they'd revert to the old tactics such as standover monstering, extortion, running whores and the rest of it but I tell you nothing has been such an earner for the crooks as supplying prohibited substances.

This is all crap, this business from the Newman govt - and the others around Australia. They're good at running up the law-enforcement flag and giving the cops a bloody difficult job while puffing out their chests and proclaiming they're hard on crime, while ignoring the causes. Idiots.

*Oh , found this on a Google search from another forum:

Yes, Jock was that colourful Det Sgt.

 

The problem is not with the removal of criminal elements.

First it was Laws to hold terror suspects without representation for indefinite periods. Now it is arresting people for nothing more than belonging to a group of people who may or may not be linked to crime. The major problem with this last one is that it is up to discretion of certain people WHAT group is considered to criminal. After all, This law brings about the decision roll of what group is considered to be criminal element to the politicians, not the judicial system.

The escalation of removing the rights of people without judicial discretion is continuing with government legislation the right to hold people indefinitely after found guilty of a crime after their sentence is complete. All at the discrimination of the government of the time.

When is it you draw the line? When is it you say that this is not right? When it is you who is facing the wrath of a government who has decided you are not welcome in the streets of Australia?

Placing your complete faith in the police is admiral, but always stated "police are a law unto themselves." continued erosion of people’s rights are exactly how dictators remain in power and you seem pleased to turn a blind eye. In fact many seem to rejoice in that very aspect.

Think about the KGB and the secret police of Hitler’s time, what was their roll in their country. Think about current dictators and the laws they introduced and how they got there. I wonder just how far people will allow governments to go. Soon it will be circumventing the judicial system because their new laws does not gaol the people these politicians want... Will you say something then? After all, they are already doing it by legislation to hold people indefinitely at the discretion of the government. This will only make it harder for people to convict people, but that is OK, because when they do you can rest assured that they will never see the light of day if the government decides not to let them outside the judicial system.

 

Very well said and a little hard to refute, since you have been there and done that.

We are a peculiar thing, humans. What percentage of police are involved in some sort of criminal or illegal behavior. I include in this drink driving, assault (use of undue force) etc. Maybe as high as the percentage of bikers that do? I don't know, just guessing. Also when the police do something, the punishment is usually a slap on the wrist, transfer, desk duties for a few weeks etc.

Now I have always believed that police that break the law should suffer a greater penalty than non police, but people say, as did the NSW commissioner about police having the same percentage of dope smokers as the general public, "well they are humans and make human errors". Now a doctor is a human, a heart surgeon is a human, a neuro surgeon is a human, can they be let off for "human error"? I think not, especially if they have their hands on your heart, or in your cranium.

I know the cops have one of the worst jobs in the world, they see people at their worst, they are hated by a fair percentage of the population, they are walking targets for any idiot with a mental problem etc etc. But they take the job, to protect the people, to keep law and order. If what they do is not protecting people, is not keeping law and order, rather what they are doing is the opposite, then they should feel the full weight of the law.

As for drugs, couldn't agree more, I think a lot of people would be surprised to find out when and why they were made illegal, nothing to do with crime actually. The crime was created by the politicians and police.

 

I'm always a bit reluctant to claim expertise simply because I once did a job. I'd say I can reflect on experience but that I'm not expert.


One thing that I do know, from personal experience, is that coppers are like anyone else (surprise!). I know the old rotten apple theory, which is basically crap. Most of the apples are a bit bruised, some more than others, a very small minority are actually really off, rotten to the core; but when the apples go into the barrel it takes a year or so for them to start getting their skins bruised - but they will be bruised. Most of the apples will stay pretty good, but with the odd bit of bruising and brown flesh here and there.

In other words, not all coppers are pure as the driven snow, nor are they really bad, rather they're mostly good but, given the right circumstances, they can be bad for short bursts (eg dui, assault on the job using too much force etc.) But in my former dept no slap on the wrist, trust me, no mercy, officially anyway, if you got pinched you knew you were going down.

 

You must be under 30, as you have no concept of what Democracy is ,or isn't ,see Democratic minded people treat everyone as Equal ,and as far as the LAW OF THE LAND ,we think it is applied EQUALLY ,despite ,Religion ,Social Group affiliations ,Freedom of movement, FOR ALL.

CRIMINAL GANG ,every Political Party in Parliament is by Definition a GANG of Criminals ,as they cover up the truth ,take corrupt backhanders ,attack Democratic Principles and have sold us all out to the USA , see we used to have ,Cities ,States ,and a Nation of Humans ,now we have this Liberal US Imperialist CRAP called ,Commmunnnity.

So answer a simple question ,WHAT is this "COMMMMUNNNITY " we all get told exists .???????

Except if they want to ban you ,criminalise you ,for being a Motor Cycle Club ,so-called "Outlawed ".

Put it in front of a Court Newman ,Wouldn't last 2 minutes ,as it is ANTI- Democratic legislation ,straight from God Nut USA to us.

P.S Convicted criminals are still Citizens ,and anything that a Queeennssland ,Copper says is load of Crap ,until proven in a COURT!

 

And then they created the Lesbian and Gay Police ,GLLO ,and it all went crap from there.

Never have I seen such corruption as the GLLO Police or the Pouf Police as I call them ,To their faces and they usually run away!

 

Oh and don't forget the SYSTEMATIC cover up of CHILD RAPE ,by the Catholic church ,BY EVERY POLICE FORCE INCLUSIVE !

Head Lesbian Copper in NSW , has had to be removed when the child Rape Inquiry bought out she ,SHREADED EVIDENCE ,had to be shuffled to the side ,HEY Mr Scipione.

Lovely people Copper .

 

Newman is now upsetting the judges. No doubt he or his supporters or the low info LNP voters will declare that judges are there to enforce the law. They ain't. They're there to interpret the law. One of the major principles in common law (I realise Qld is a code-law state) is that stare decisis applies, that precedent is followed unless it should be distinguished. his avoids the unwise creation of new decisions which go against what is and what should be an essentially conservative process. Stare decisis stops wacky magistrates and judges going off on a tangent.

Now I understand pretty well the doctrine of the supremacy of parliament, but even the parliament can't pass unconstitutional laws. Our constitution law is not just our own Constititution but the entire opus of bits and pieces that is the English Constitution (not sure because Qld is a code state how far that goes) and the final arbiter is the High Court of Australia. Newman has gone off like a demagogue and so far he's getting away with it. I read the online papers and the comments are revealing. Quite a lot of correspondents seem to agree with what Newman is doing without realising the potential damage. As I said, demagoguery.


We'll soon see why judges are given their authority and can't easily be bullied or sacked by executive government. And hopefully the HCA will get to grips with the constitutionality of these laws both in Qld and elsewhere.

- - - Updated - - -

On USSR's reference to the GLBT Liaison Officers:

I can remember the days of the SA Vice Squad "learn to swim campaign" when they would chuck cruising gays in the Torrens. You may remember that one drowned - Dr Duncan, senior law lecturer at the Univ of Adelaide 1971 or 1972 or thereabouts. We've come a long way since then and I'd hate to see it revert.

 

Well it is the judges that are letting the system down so its no wonder they are struggling for some moral position in how the system is perceived by the public.

Newman's comment's are not about any particular case, so they are irrelevant to individual cases. For established organised crime there will already be a public perception of the guilt or otherwise of the general topic so the concern among some/any judges about Newman's position on CMG's is petty and irrelevant.

 

Interesting..... You say democratically minded people treat everyone as equal. I take it you see yourself as such a person, just reading through your posts. You say it is wrong to malign groups as Newman has with the bikies.

And all along you malign gays and lesbians. The word hypocrite comes to mind.

 

Whenever I hear something, some judgement made from impressions gathered off of media reports I am reminded on an R.A. Heinlein quote

What are the facts? Again and again and again – what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history” – what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!

How many of those "bad judicial decisions" are a proportion of the whole?

Bikie gangs have had a bad name since Brando first straddled a saddle in the "Wild One" back in the fifties



But that does not mean every association of people with motorbikes is a criminal organisation

And again I ask - what would be the reaction if this were happening to the RSL?