Brazil's right wing government moves to attack indigenous constitutional rights

I asked for a legitimate source. So you have none.

All you have is a progressive rag claiming he said this and providing no source. Where's the video of him saying that? Where's the recording?

If you google that sentence all you see is other progressive rags with as much evidence he said this. ZERO.

All I see is a circlejerk of the MSM quoting each other. Like usual. There's no way one of these 'journalists' could have made an 'error' translating what he said and the others started mindlessly parroting it afterwards...right?

This thing reeks of fake news. For example, only progressives believe the Indians were "exterminated". Why would a RWer say that they were?

There is massive evidence the left-wing media is made of professional liars. We address their lies several times a week, there's hundreds of threads exposing them on this forum.

As for "proto fascist dictators", I couldn't care less about you guys' baseless beliefs. As usual, you have nothing. Cough up the evidence or go home.

 

Lol, when did the Independent become a progressive rag?

It's been reported in multiple credible sources. I suppose you think anything outside Breitbart or Fox is fake news.

That's right all the sources who reported this made and error or are making it up.......you sir are just trolling and I'm not in the mood to feed it.

My thread. You don't like it don't post. No one is making you face up to reality. Go live in your fantasy world if that is your choice.

 

this is sort of the "own a lib" trolling thing, isn't it? Sad on what is supposed to be a legitimate forum.

By the way, it's not left-wing media, it's corporate media. Learn the difference.

 

All of that anti western civilization hate has little to do with what I wrote

My reference is always centered on America unless otherwose stated

The Indians were the first unwilling guinea pigs of the modern American welfare state

And woe be unto them

 

Realty. You are justifying the use of force? You’re rejecting reasoned argument and debate in exchanged: sit down, shut up, and obey...or die?

You truly are the enlightened one, What the hell was Ayn Rand thinking? Rational beings? Rejecting the power of reason and picking up the gun. You’re a Progressive? Right?

 

And what is your understanding of epistemology? Social convention? Divine Intuition? Instinct? Dogma? Or Reality?

 

I've known how international corporations work for probably longer than you've been alive. Don't patronize me by 'educating' me on the ways of the world. Americans are also being ripped off by international mining companies. They are granted concessions by our government, and buy public land for $2.50-$5.00 per acre. This is part of the 1872 Mining Law that is still in effect. They are supposed to pay royalties from their mining operations on these public lands to the government, but internationals cried about the royalties saying that they would cripple mining companies. From 1872 to 1991 mining companies have taken $250 billion of minerals from public land and have barely paid any royalties at all.
It is the same in other countries. Pay off the politicians, get land for cheap, and concessions to mine the land. Suck it dry and leave the mess for everyone else to clean up. They do that here, and they do it in other countries too. Just because mining companies' headquarters are located in America doesn't mean they are American companies. They are internationalists.

 

Pipette, if you haven't read the book then you do need to be educated. The structure used by the CIA & certain American corporations in South America is not typical of how corporations function.

The exploitation described by John Perkins are now being used by China and others. In fact what this means is that the US are now forced to increase their "exploitation/predatory" methods or risk being left behind. It is exactly this form of exploitation that made America great. The risk to the United States is that they will elect another "Obama" who are likely to "do the right thing" and not exploit others... the US will then be overtaken by China and others who have no such qualms.

 

I am not sure what you are really asking here, Starjet but you actually have an interesting style of presenting yourself and write well which you cannot say about everyone on this forum. I think you are worth trying to present ideas that may be outside your interpretation of reality.

Here's the thing. The "truth" you seem to think describes your interpretation of reality cannot exist unless you dehumanize and belittle the aspirations and natural ambitions of others who, in reality, have exactly the same right to land and resources and to protect such rights as you do. And as you have demonstrated, you are willing to dehumanize and belittle others who you deem inferior to yourself in the most derogatory terms in order to justify what you see as some kind of higher right than anyone else on this planet has. This is the kind of delusion that leads to war, genocide and mass murder of those whose sufferings and aspirations you ignore because you refuse to see them as just as human as you are.

Rand is really just a lighter version of Nietzsche if Nietzsche was a terrible writer and was afraid to go to the really dark places of the human soul. But Nietzsche was fearless and took the ideas that you and Rand are trying to express to their ultimate conclusion - which drove him mad in the end.

It is not me who is justifying force, it is you who needs to utilize force in order to protect your self - described "truth" from the truth of others. The so-called civilization you describe is really jut a mechanized version of the same avarice and brutality that has always been a part of the human experience but which we are able to rise above when we truly understand that there is nothing special about any one of us. We are all the same and have the same aspiration, hopes, weaknesses and dreams.

Nietzsche saw the terrible truth of his "will to power" and the rise of "ubermensch" who held to no law or authority but their own wealth, priviledge and glory and denounced as subhuman those lesser than beings who stood in the way of "civilization" and "progress."

He would have been horrified at the utter destruction and inhumanity his vision of the human experience taken to it's logical conclusion would take in Germany but he must stand accountable as he saw pity, compassion and community as weaknesses that held the "ubermensch" from their proper place ruling a society of superior being accountable to no one but their own entitlement and "will to power."

This is the path you are on. This is the path that people who think as you and Rand did are leading the world to. It is fascism disguised as material rationality. It is the path to insanity, death and destruction and the final death of the human spirit.

I'll leave you with a quote from Nietzsche, just because he is such a powerful guy to quote:

"And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."

 

There is no hatred of western civilization. I am trying to show you the people you describe as victims of some welfare state are nothing of the sort.

Native Americans had a long tradition of governance and civilization long before white people came here. Many aspects of the Iroquois confederacy were taken into the Republican constitution as conditions of good government.

In fact the first settlers would have not survived the first winters here unless the Indians had taken pity on them and as was their want, shared food and shelter and taught the white man how to survive in a new and hostile environment. And how did those white settlers repay that kindness.......The settlers were sure willing to take hand outs when their own survival was in the balance but one the power had shifted. If only the natives could have understood the true nature of the white newcomers the history of North America would have been much different.

I worked for Indian and Northern Affairs before going to college and had a chance to see the actual numbered treaties as they were written. There was not one that was not reneged upon or torn up when it suited white people. Even in my country, the native people were pushed off their land by force to make way for European settlers and subjected to forced assimilation such as the president of Brazil is advocating. The result was not pretty. Buffalo once roamed the prairies in vast countless numbers but the Europeans wiped them out, on purpose, in order to destroy the Indians way of life.

What were they to do on the tiny little reserves they were forced onto by the Indian Act? And that is just in my country. In yours, there was a systematic policy of extermination. This is not western hatred, it is documented fact.

Still, the indigenous people have survived and endured and when given a chance through self-determination over land through modern land claims such is the Nisga'a treaty or Esquimalt land claim they thrive and prosper. the real issue is land, resources and self-determination.

Unwilling guinea pigs of colonialism, genocide and mass extermination they may be but victims of a welfare state? That is in your imagination.

The strong communal instinct of their hunter-gatherer societies is what enabled them to survive the avaricious, murderous greed of Renaissance Europeans and their lust for land and profit.

We can learn a lot from their experience as our own economic system exhausts to destruction the planet that gives us all life.

 

No kidding?

That would make you at least 200 years old since thats when we forcefully moved the Western tribes onto reservations and made welfare bums out of them

 

Sounds just like the good old USA with her indigenous people!

 

I am aware of the clandestine, and almost evil nature of the CIA.

Ever hear of Head smashed in-Buffalo Jump? The Blackfoot Indian would steer the entire buffalo herd off a cliff. Not exactly a conservative way to hunt buffalo. You blame white men for the massive decline in buffalo back in the days; but I think the Natives may have been at least slightly to blame just like they are also to blame for the decline in salmon as they are allowed to net the mouths of rivers.
All of the terrible stories about how murderous whites were are documented facts? You can document these claims then? I would love see these documented facts. Surviving documents of the history of indigenous peoples are quite rare.

You imply that 'indigenous' people were nature worshipping, kind, gentle spirits when in fact they constantly fought their neighboring tribes, and often enslaved the losers.

Go take all this historical 'knowledge' you think you have of all those murderous Europeans and tell it to someone who cares. I have taken a history class that used Howard Zinn's so-called history book of America. It is a joke and is very poorly referenced. You might have taken the same class because you parrot everything the troublemaking Zinn says in his book.

Maybe the indigenous of the world should boycott technology invented by Europeans, and go back to the stone-age. Last I noticed
they were driving Ford trucks and lived in houses with electricity, showers, refrigerators, etc.

By the way, it was those murderous Europeans who lit up the world and invented technology that allows you to dehumanize Europeans on your computer and through wifi.

Ungrateful you are.

 

A treatise on Nietzsche, Rand, and their opposing metaphysics and epistemology is not pertinent to the issue at hand. The issue is: Do primitives have rights that supersede individual rights. They don’t.

In any conflict between civilization and primitives, morality demands the primitives acquiescence and the civilized prevail.

More to the point, who in their right mind would want it any other way? Teepees, mud huts, dirt hovels, horses, goats, warlords, witch doctors, medicine men, and human sacrifices against, ranch houses, skyscrapers, Morton’s steak house, jets, space ships, presidents, governors, brains surgeons, psychologists, human flourishing?

Not me.

With regards in this case, follow the principle of property rights, not aboriginal collectivism.

And remember: “The noble soul has reverence for itself.”—Nietzsche

https://www.google.com/amp/s/aristotlethegeek.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/the-noble-soul/amp/

 

As mentioned earlier, this isn't the place to debate Ayn Rand, her novels or her view of man. However, as a thank you for your brilliant observation of my writing skills, if you truly wish to debate Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism, here’s a link to follow:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...pedestal-or-the-cross.550884/#post-1070229948

 

I guess I should have made it clearer for you. I handled the original documents and helped translate them to microfishe.

Bit of a bigoted stereotype to say all tribes are welfare bums isn't it? I know many who are internationally renowned artists whose works sell for millions. There are thriving industries on successful land claim territories such as world famous fishing lodges and resorts. There is logging, mining and silviculture all through the ancestral lands of many of the first nation territories.

Your statement is as unfair and bigoted as if I were to say all Americans are violent, racist yobos who couldn't find North Dakota on a map with a magnifying glass. Sure, true in some cases but to brand em all by the actions of some would be unfair, no?

 

Many are

Many cant hold a job due to drug or alcohol addiction that dates back to their forced relocation to reservations and dependence of the government for their basic needs

 

I've been to HSIBJ. I am from Alberta originally. So, the first nations hunted that way for longer than 5,000 years and there were still about 50 million buffalo running around when whites got here. And then by 1870 they were basically exterminated from the prairie - but it is the first nations who were unsustainable.

Is that really what you are saying?

There are all kinds of written records and historical documents on the subject that show exactly what happened. The Indian wars in the US are not general knowledge because the patriotic drivel you guys are drenched with does not like to examine the facts but that does not mean the facts have not been documented. My country was not much better. Yes, I can document these claims. In fact it is a matter of record that part of the US army's strategy was to wipe out the Buffalo in order to starve the Indians into submission.

People as diverse as Bill Cody and General Sheridan are on record as having said such:

One colonel, four years earlier, had told a wealthy hunter who felt a shiver of guilt after he shot 30 bulls in one trip: "Kill every buffalo you can! Every buffalo dead is an Indian gone.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/05/the-buffalo-killers/482349/



Other massacres of unarmed Indian women and children in cold blood are well documented historical fact. And not just at Wounded Knee. Here is a timeline of the Indian wars on the Prairies:

http://sites.austincc.edu/caddis/great-plains-wars/

No one is implying that the Indians could no be brutal in their own right but the original question was about the land rights of aboriginals and in those terms, treaty after treaty was broken and the slaughter by white's was on an industrial scale.

What's wrong with Howard Zinn? I didn't take him in University but I have read People's History. It is a meticulous, well researched book.

Can you describe exactly what you take issue with in Zinn and then provide documentation as to why he was wrong? Please reputable links not right-wing hit pieces.

Your last sentence is ironic. The White Man's burden argument. Nobody is dehumanizing Europeans. This thread is about aboriginal land claims protected by the constitution in Brazil before it devolved into the usual welfare bum narrative. I am trying to put history into context.

If we do not understand history we are doomed to repeat it.

 

Some truth here but to brand all under the same banner is disingenuous. Like saying the deaths of the opiod crisis means all millennials are dope fiends. I think you would do better if you added some nuance to your posts. Otherwise you come off, well, you know.........

Many have settled land claims and are gainfully thriving with self determination. Drug and Alcohol addiction are symptoms of trauma and alienation. These people have suffered a lot.

 

Says who? What morality? Could you show where this is mandated under international law?

And what is your definition of civilization? The Haida had a trading network stretching from Vancouver Island to Alaska and a complicated social structure. The Iroquois had a constitution of laws that included 117 articles of peace and a thriving agricultural civilization. The Inca had a civilization that stretched all the way from Peru to Central America and the pre-incan stone work is practically indestructible while colonial Spanish buildings crumble in Earthquakes.

Meanwhile, Europeans were butchering themselves all over the Europe in wars over god and gold and enslaving people from Congo to South Africa.

So who's interpretation of "civilized should we follow? What you are really getting down to is land and property rights and as I said before, you cannot maintain land and property unless you take it by force from someone else - and for that you need an army and police to enforce your rights. And then you need to dehumanize the "others" as savages in order to justify your aggression when in fact, these people are just as human as you and I and have just as much right to self-determination.

Or should we just submit and give up our land for people who alone have deemed themselves superior over some self-described notion of civilization?

By that standard we are far more civilized than say Texas. We don't have the death penalty, we are just as technologically advanced but our leader has never boinked a porn star and can speak in coherent sentences.

So all those Texans are going to have to leave and take the Dallas Cowboys with them. Here is something you may find interesting on the myth of the White Mans Burden:

The two Bush administrations have been forced to react to this notion on a number of occasions. In 2003, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice was asked by a German news team if she accepted that America could be compared to the Roman Empire. As may perhaps be predicted, her reply was that she did not, because “the United States has no imperial ambitions.”4Similarly, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was cornered by an Al-Jazeera journalist in 2003 and asked if the U.S. had come to Iraq to build an empire. Rumsfeld, again predictably, insisted that the US “is not a colonial power. We have never been a colonial power. We don’t take our force and go around the world and try to take other people’s real estate and other people’s resources, their oil. That’s just not what the United States does. We never have and we never will. That’s not how democracies behave.”5

3Rumsfeld is of course wrong here. Whether out of convenience or ignorance, he leaves out the fact that at the end of the Spanish-American War in 1898, the United States acquired Guam and Puerto Rico, bought the Philippines for $20 million from Spain and seized control of Cuba, prompting Rudyard Kipling to write his famous poem “The White Man’s Burden”. The inclusion of the Philippines also generated a great deal of imperialist rhetoric from President McKinley who soon launched a campaign for the “benevolent assimilation” of the Philippines. This campaign eventually resulted in a prolonged colonial war that claimed the lives of more than 4000 American soldiers, some 16,000 Philippine soldiers and approximately 200,000 civilians.6

https://journals.openedition.org/ejas/1542

Now you are getting to the heart of the matter. And why are your property rights any more "morally just" than anyone else's and what exactly is it that you use to defend your property rights and why are you so stubbornly refusing to pay for the force that upholds your "civilizaton"?

And remember: “The noble soul has reverence for itself.”—Nietzsche

https://www.google.com/amp/s/aristotlethegeek.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/the-noble-soul/amp/[/QUOTE]

 

[/QUOTE]
Reason determines what’s moral. As to the rest, Indian tribes showed great courage, had fantastic hunting skills, decent organization abilities, but, no gun powder. They had no written language, except pictograph and sign language. There communication networks were smoke, messenger, or word of mouth. They had a strong superstitious view of existence. Many tribes, as a way of life, robbed, raped, looted, and enslaved each other.

They what they were, primitive savages. They were doomed to fail. There was nothing in their existence that was sustainable, anymore that a pioneer life would be today. We’re all Indians emotional superstitious brutes. No, but as a people, and a way of life, I submit they were.

If my history is correct, many men and women would commit suicide rather than be captured alive by certain Indian tribes. And no rational mind today would wish to live like an Indian.

As to the Incas, the Aztecs, and the Mayans, they practiced human sacrifice on scale unequaled in human history.

I, personably have never been impressed by African tribes—very ugly, mean, disfiguring, bizarre people. Cannibalism, shrunken heads, brutal tribal wars and enslavement.

Western culture has demonstrated in every single instance that its life affirming values of reason, science, and emphasis on individual liberty and personal achievement, is superior to all other ways of being, of living life on earth.

Western civilization gave us population growth, life longevity, hospitals, vaccines, Hd TV, computers and spaceships. The Indians gave us totem poles, witch doctors, turquoise, and the Mohawk haircut. I know what I prefer. What about you?

 

**** them!

Bolsonaro was voted into power by a large majority of Brazilians, all this "the White man is so evil to you" propaganda did not work, large parts of the population is was adressed to were immune to this marxist ****. Many of the "supressed" minorities saw what Marxist **** looked like, were shocked when they got an impression how Dilma Roussef or Lula Sa Silva considered the state as their property and were tired to hear that the Whites are to blame for all evil in the world which should excuse their failure. Many are convinced Evangelicals right now, in support of Bolsonaro and the military ready to go on a killing spree if Bolsonaro declares open hunting season on marxists.

 

Thats interesting

Unfortunately I am not very knowledgable about Brazil

Now I now a little more

 

We're all capable of being emotional, superstitious brutes and of committing all kinds of barbarous crimes against humanity. Any study of the "civilized" industrial wars of the 20th century should tell you that. Any study of the religious wars of the renaissance and even troubles between protestants and Catholics in the modern age should tell you this. Why were they doomed to fail? They had thriving cultures and communities before white's came here why should they have not progressed along their own lines towards modernity had they not encountered colonial Europeans?

And if my history is correct, at the same time Europeans were burning witches at the stake and shoved red hot pikes up peoples rectums for sacrilege or disobeying the church.

You're point is?

They practiced human sacrifice but unequaled in human history??? C'mon - even you know that is not true.

Okay, we have already established that you have to dehumanize and denigrate other people's and societies in order to make your ideology of western superiority work. Just for the record,western society has also given us unprecedented, brutal, industrial wars that have killed millions all over the world, garbage patches the size of Texas in our oceans and a mass species extinction that is killing species at a rate far faster than even the Permo-Triassic. We have environmental and climate crisis's that threaten the entire species and the distinct possibility of nuclear confrontation - in fact it is a miracle that nukes have not been used given all the close calls over the years - that threatens the extinction of society as we know it. We have obscene levels of inequality and humanitarian catastrophes that create appalling human suffering.

So, I know you are bedazzled with the trinkets of empire but for most people in the world western civilization is a mixed bag at best, no.

So given that you have dehumanized and denigrated aboriginals around the world in order to justify western conquest of land and resources, you still have not provided any convincing argument why even if you are right in dehumanizing these people, why does that justify taking their land by military force?

 

No you don't. This is obvious government propaganda to justify the corporate/military takeover of constitutionally protected aboriginal land for profit of foreigners and minority elites who will profit from that takeover.

And the allusion to government violence at the end of the paragraph draws comparisons to all the other right-wing, CIA funded death squads that have plagued regimes supported by American commercial interests from Nicaragua to Chile to El Salvador and a 100 different places in between since the dawn of the cold war.

Bolsonaro was voted in with 55% of the vote which is hardly a large majority.

There is no "white man is evil" propaganda. There is an attempt to look at the history of colonialism in the region with an eye to not creating more of the same disastrous policy mistakes that we have in the past.

Turning the wealth of Brazil over to the plunder of foreign corporations for the profit of a few elites is not the answer - never was.