There is a lot more data in the study. A few years ago, I saw a study of all US and some coalition military handgun shootings since 1990 (I searched for it on the web, couldn't find it there). It showed that 9mm and larger there was no difference in effectiveness. Since military handguns are 9mm and larger, that also shows that even with trained personnel caliber isn't that important. And whats the objective? In terms of criminals, one shot is successful whether it kills the bad guy immediately or makes him run away and leave you alone while he bleeds. I sort of agree with you that the 9mm is the "center", but stepping down to the 380 is also a good choice for a lot of people.
I agree completely. With a handgun the key is to get multiple hits. It's pretty much the same with a shotgun. Three or more torso hits with buckshot greatly increases effectiveness. A full load of standard 9 pellet 00 buck is for practical purposes not survivable.
You mean the action type? I think the rate of fire is just not practical. How long does a 30 round mag. run @ 1,200 rounds per minute?
As for R.I.P. rounds This ain't the first "magic bullet". There's another one out now where the guy uses a 90 gr. bullet and claims 18.5" of penetration with a 2" dia. wound channel, from a 9mm hand gun. I've messed with a bunch of different bullets in my quest for the "right one" to use in my hand loads. Beginning with the Hornady 124 gr. XTP, driven to just over 1,400 fps, and ending with the Rem. 124 gr. Golden Saber, loaded the same, I found that performance in the various media I used was very similar. Wet news print/phone books is the closest I've used to ballistic gel. I find that the typical 124 gr. JHP penetrates about 6~8 inches, and then the jacket sheds from the bullet, which travels on for another 5 or so inches. That's really not a problem. The jacket has served to get the lead core deep into the target, and allows the core to deform freely at the decreased velocity, thus maximizing damage. The bullet that I landed on is the old fashioned 124 gr. Rem. copper jacketed HP. Expansion is uniform, and they expand to around .70 cal. after about 4" of penetration. That's with MV right at 1,400 fps, and impact distance at about 15 feet. The jacket remains on the bullet almost all of the time, because the lead and copper pretty much "intertwine". With the other bullets, the jacket usually opens to the point where it just pukes the bullet out. A long time ago, I read where someone was very fond of exit wounds. The idea is that a large exit will do nothing but bleed, and badly. This is all very weird for me to consider. I'm fascinated with shooting, reloading, ballistic study and load design, but I don't want to hurt no-one. I write it off as I do so many of the dichotomies that one has to deal with. It's life in the world, in the way of the world. The trick is to be in it, but not of it.
At 1200 RPM you could make the caliber small causing a reduction in recoil and more rounds on target, similar to the concept of the G-11.
Now you got me to read up on the G-11. It fired @ 2,100 rpm only for the 3 round bursts. It could do that because there was no case to deal with. But it didn't work. With our current M-4, the burst rate fires @ 10 rounds per sec., and it works pretty good. 1,200 rpm would be 20 rounds per sec, so maybe it would work a little better, but we already have ammo conservation issues. I think we spent 1.2 MILLION rounds per casualty in Afghanistan. How much lighter would you want to make the projectiles, and still be at all effective out to 250 yards? At one time, our military tried going as small as .12 cal. The problem with that is that condensation in the barrel "bridges" into a solid droplet, thus effectively causing a barrel obstruction. When the gun is fired with that droplet in the barrel, it causes a bulge, somewhere short of the obstruction, and ruins the barrel. I don't know why we didn't pursue .17 cal. In the Wiki write-up about the G-11, the cal. is closer to .20, and they say that the bullets failed to expand or deform, even at close range. We do see correct bullet design doing correct bullet things with the .204 Ruger, but range is relatively limited. When FN made the Five7 public, there were 2 other competitors; one from H&K and the other from some other guy, but they all stayed right around .22 cal. Current military thinking with 5.56 is going toward the 62 gr. JHP that has been trial tested by the IDF. Their Tavor sticks to the same cyclic rate as our M-4, so there must be a reason why 600 rpm is the happy medium.
I asked a question. You answer, not ask another question. I read a lot of gun books and never heard that.
Spare me the BS. It was for legitimate clarification because of the many holes in Cooper's life story Cooper was not much more than a sports writer, with an embellished resume, who created a persona that he began to believe. He was a riffed LTC in the USMC and was not retired as he often stated. There is no evidence he ever engaged in combat and he was never in a gunfight. His WW2 history has changed through the years and currently it was stated that he served on the USS Pennsylvania but he does not appear in pictures of the 11th Division that was the USMC detachment aboard. He's also not listed on the ship roster and nobody from the BB38 web site seems to remember him. He stated that he was involved in "irregular warfare" in Korea, but USMC involvement in this was very limited and the official history of that conflict does not mention him. Cooper certainly helped organize shooting matches in California but there is no evidence he was ever a serious competitor. That's just the beginning. Like I said where do you want to start? There's a whole lot more.
So, in this "caliber thread", I take it that Cooper was credited as being a big center fire wildcat, when he was actually just a rimfire?
Well, I wont "spare" you anything if that is your response. I asked a question, you went on a rant. Which makes me think you are the one full of BS.
I don't think so. What you don't like is the answer and the fact that you got your clock cleaned in the process. If you have a rebuttal put it out there.
Clock cleaned? LOLOLOL. About what? For asking a question? And what rebuttal are you looking for and about what. All I said is I have yet to read where Cooper is a fraud. Clearly you have issue with him. What? Did he eat your lunch one day?
FN Five-Seven. 20 round mag standard (31round aftermarket mags), 1.74 pounds fully loaded, almost no recoil, accurate and 2,130 FPS velocity. The 45 and 9mm rounds are both getting a bit long in the tooth these days [video=youtube;5m4mYCfPxH0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m4mYCfPxH0[/video]
No, but I've eaten yours. Lets look at Cooper's credentials. Did have any special training beyond what the USMC taught him on pistol craft? No. Did he attend any specialized schools on handguns such as the FBI Academy in Quantico? No. Did he have any LEO experience? No. Did he have any documented ground combat experience? No. Was he a significant competitor? No. Was he ever in any documented gunfight, especially involving hand guns? No. Provide some rebuttal or get off the thread.
You might like to think so. This is the worst way to evaluate handgun performance, but here goes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting It's an interesting little gun and round, but it does things in quite a different way than other pistols. One of my biggest gripes with it is that it's exceptionally finicky to reload ammo for. The closest rival it has is the .22 TCM. http://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-174-22-tcm-pistol/ I've been tempted to get one of these things, because it easily converts to 9mm, but I'm not a fan of the 1911, and I don't want to confuse myself between that and the Glock platform. The Five7 is not to be trifled with. If you're not already conditioned to one or another type of gun, it may as well be this one. I've recently read that ammo prices are down around the same as .22 Mag. from Palmetto State Armory. At the bottom line, I think that if 2 guys were really mad at each other, and one started shooting with a Five7 while the other responded with a more conventional pistol, they'd both be in trouble.
LOLOLOL, how so. I asked a question. You went on a rant. Period, read the thread. I will get off of this when I choose. Clearly you have something against Col Cooper. OK, fine. But don't try to take it out on me for asking a question. And you tone makes me thing you are just some loser that got kicked out of Gunsight for being a know it all. Or maybe a failed Marine.
You asked a question. I answered it. You didn't like the answer or more importantly can provide nothing in return except a weak attempt at insults. Typical for someone without a working knowledge of a topic. You said you read gun mags. A good start. I'd suggest you read a bit more before popping off.
Wow, you are a touchy little guy aren't you. I said I have read a lot. But either way. All I said was that I never hear anyone call him a fraud before. So, seeing as you want to make it about me. Have fun. You look like a loser with no knowledge what so ever. Just opinion of someone you don't like. Any time you wish to compare "working knowledge", let me know. Prepare for a schooling.
The 5.7mm round is roughly speaking. .22 magnum power. I'm not trusting my life on that. 5.7: 28 grain bullet at 2350 ft/s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7×28mm .22 Magnum: 30 grain bullet at 2300 ft/s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Winchester_Magnum_Rimfire
You are the one ascertaining that he is a fraud. Not me. My working knowledge is from LEO training, experience and competition. You?
Nah I just read lots of books, besides being a builder and former IDPA competitor. I won't even mention other places like Thunder Ranch that I've been to. That's for starters. Here's a huge tidbit for you. LEO hit rates dropped dramatically since as a group they embraced the so called modern method. Maybe that's why their hit rates are lower than the average civilian, keeping in mind the threat is not the same and neither are the officers. I just wonder how many LEO's have been killed because of the "modern method." Too bad Jim Cirillo didn't become the "guru" or even Ayoob who is a true student of the pistol. Fortunately we have guys like Rob Pincus, who can incorporate both military, LEO and civilian insight into correcting decade old mistakes.
Nah I just read lots of books, besides being a builder and former IDPA competitor. I won't even mention other places like Thunder Ranch that I've been to. That's for starters. Here's a huge tidbit for you. LEO hit rates dropped dramatically since as a group they embraced the so called modern method. Maybe that's why their hit rates are lower than the average civilian, keeping in mind the threat is not the same and neither are the officers. I just wonder how many LEO's have been killed because of the "modern method." Too bad Jim Cirillo didn't become the "guru" or even Ayoob who is a true student of the pistol. Fortunately we have guys like Rob Pincus, who can incorporate both military, LEO and civilian insight into correcting decade old mistakes.
Well, aren't you special. One question though. Ever traded lead with anyone, or you just a theory guy? But hey, allow your hate for Copper to over through good sense all you wish. Oh, and I did it with a 586 Smith. Not a 18 round Glock. So Iam thinking my placement must be pretty good.
