California movement to secede from US cleared to gather signatures

Speaking of...

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/patton-oswalt-mocks-protesters-coronavirus

This asshat has a lot to say about the greed of Republicans but seems to forget that some people have to work to eat. This fat little loser is a true POS as he has shown with this.

 

To those invested in lies, nothing is more forgettable than the truth.

No doubt you are blissfully oblivious to the irony.

Obviously the idea that I'm an idiot does wonders for your sense of self-esteem.

Something tells me you've never even looked at the Confederate Constitution.

Congratulations on having a respect for America's founding principles that's on a par with that of woke Kalifornians, I guess.

 

Silicone Valley is not what it is today because of manufacturing chips. That's done overseas.

I don't believe you know much about the California economy.

The rest is pretty funny! Good job!

 

Like McConnell and Russia??

I doubt that.

 

Huh?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...b26e00-b97c-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html

Russia agreed to building an Aluminum plant in Kentucky where Russia would own 40%. But, Russia was under trade sanctions due to their involvement in US elections.

The day after the Russian company (Ruso) agreeed with the major businessman on the US side, Mitch bagan moving the US Senate to end all sanctions against Russian businesses - an unpopular decision opposed by at least 11 Republican senators and having no justification for being a needed change.

There was a call to investigate the deal. Ruso said that if anyone looked into the deal, Ruso would ditch the deal. So, no investigation took place.

Thus his state got an aluminum plant and Russia got relieved of all sanctions for their assault on our democracy - plus Oleg Deripaska, implicated in all sorts of illegal activity (not just the assault on our elections) got a major business foothold in America with close ties to the Senate majority leader.

 

Well one of the current leaders claim they are progressive so idk what to tell you, you’ll have to take it up with him:

“Calexit is left — we are progressive, and that's why we don't like Trump," said Marcus Ruiz Evans, one of the leaders of the Yes California campaign seeking California independence.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/cal...ornia-from-us-is-getting-a-second-chance.html

 

Again, huh?

What does this have to do with California secession, other than the Russians would love it?

 

The 'movie stars' better have helicopters, helipads near their mansions, and pilots ready to fly -- FAST -- when a 'big one' finally hits! Vegas would be fairly safe -- until the panicked, chaotic mobs from "Southland" come boiling over the Nevada border to get away from the horrific devastation. It may not happen today, and it may not happen for a hundred years or more... but it WILL happen.

But -- probably the more immediate, impending danger is far to the north, directly underneath Oakland. That's where the Hayward Fault is waiting to tear the entire Bay Area to shreds. "Loma Prieta" in 1989 wasn't even a much of a 'wiggle' compared to what THAT's going to be like....

Now, imagine another surge along the Garlock Fault down south (like that which occurred in 2019, but stronger), intersecting with the San Andreas to the west, and setting it into motion against the Hayward up north near the Bay Area. I sure as hell hope that Kalifornia is its own separate, independent country, with its own separate 'wonderous' economy before THAT happens. If not, it will bankrupt the rest of us....

 

Well, you 'sliced and diced' my post to the point of obliteration. I suppose by taking things down to a 'bite-sized' context, you were able to apply your desired rather myopic 'focus' on them. Whatever. My Post #912 (above), in its ENTIRETY, said everything I had to offer on the secession attempt by the Confederate States of America.

Nevertheless, it is worth remembering that the only thing in the Constitution of the United States that is applicable to slavery, per se, is described in the 10th Amendment... whether that pleases you or not: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Lastly, and equally obvious, is the fact that there was nothing (NOTHING) in the Constitution that forbade people from removing themselves from the United States and forming their own country -- EXACTLY as the American Colonists had wished to leave the Kingdom of Great Britain in 1776....

 

Both conservatives and liberals who believe in democracy ought to be able to agree with the principle of self-determination.

If large majority of people living in a certain region, as a long-term, settled view, want to rule themselves -- in principle they should be allowed to do so.
There are lots of practical difficulties and pragmatic considerations, but the principle should be clear. For example, if the Catalans in Spain, or the Basques, want their own separate country, they should be allowed to have it. Ths same goes for Kashmir, and a number of other places. Usually, problems arise because the people living in these regions are not all of the same ethnicity -- and so the prospect of mass slaughter, a la Yugoslavia arises. (Our Leftist friends survey the dozens of situations in the 20th Century where two peoples, living side-by-side, turn on each other and butcher each other ... and conclude .... "Diversity is Strength!" Having swallowed that, it's then easy for them to say "Socialism will bring prosperity!")

If a substantial majority in Califoria -- say, 60% -- want to leave ... and have voted for that twice with a year's time in between ... they should have the right to do so.

I personally think that an independent California would become a shining 'City on a Hill' of ethnic harmony and ever-increasing prosperity, a real socialist utopia.

 

It has to do with your suggestion that China would buy influence in CA if it seceded.

Look back. I wrote that in response to YOUR short post making that explicit suggestion.

 

Self determination doesn't mean that any group that wants to leave gets to leave.

Our revolution was based on the fact that we didn't have representation.

It wasn't like CA's relationship to the USA.

America's relationshp with Great Britain was more like Puerto Rico's relationship to America - where America taxes them, they are subject to presidential executive orders and to bills of the US congress. They are American citizens, but have no congressional represetation and are not allowed to vote in presidetial elections and not all of the constitution applies to them.

 

No significant portion of America believes Socialism is a satisfactory form of government.

Diversity IS strength. America proved that.

Syria had been diverse for a long time. Problems arose because of a tragically despotic dictator - which caused Bush to put Syria on our list of counries where we would like to see regime change, in 2001. It was exacerbated by a years long drought as well as the advent of terrorism in the wake of our conquest of Iraq.

 

Yes. I'm not claiming that the right to self-determination is simply an application of the justification for America's cutting loose from Great Britain ... although it would have been interesting if the Brits had been canny enough to offer the Americans some Members of Parliament. I suspect our Founders would have rejected the offer, because they were really republicans, aiming to establish that Novus Ordo Seclorum.

In any case, I believe the right of self-determination is a valid one: the UK will let Northern Ireland go, once the Catholics have out-bred the Protestants there, and I believe Scotland will leave within the next few years. There really isn't any valid argument against it, except, I suppose, a pragmatic one, such as, "We have to forcibly retain you because we need your islands as naval bases". And smart self-determiners will try to meet all such objections in advance.

For example, the people agitating for the Peoples Republic of California should pledge in advance not to allow foreign troops to be stationed on their soil, and should make generous concessions to 'remainers', perhaps via some kind of county option arrangement: for instance, when obligatory lessons in alternative sexuality are introduced into the elementary schools, counties which object could opt out. Such counties could also be guaranteed to be allowed to have bi-lingual classes in their schools. The passage of time would surely see the old reactionaries die off, or emigrate, so it would only be a temporary concession.

 

@Doug1943 I understand the conceptual argument for a right to self-determination, but if you're arguing that it should apply to California, and they should be free to secede, why would that argument not be equally valid for the in-land regions in California that would choose to remain part of the USA? Why would we allow a few coastal cities to drag all those Americans and their land out of our nation against their will? If you think California should be allowed to secede from the Union because "self-determination", then why wouldn't Shasta County and all of its neighbors be justified in seceding from California (and presumably re-joining the Union)?

 

Yes, it depends on what you mean by 'socialism'. No one today believes in total government ownership of the economy, with production following the dictates of a Central Planning Board. The 'Socialist Calculation Question' was never answered. I'm using the word to mean the gradual, steady advance of state control of an essetnially private economy (at first), income redistribution, lots of regulations, etc.

As for diversity being strength. Assad is an Alawite, a heretical sect in the eyes of Sunnis, and his overthrow by the jihadis we supported would have meant massacres for his sect, and various other minority groups in Syria. But if all these diverse groups loved each other, a drought, or American hostility, would not have interrupted the love.

I absolutely sympathyze with the desire that all the diverse groups of mankind get along with each other. And I hope that in the long run -- over several more generations -- as the backward nations are pulled up, and globalization proceeds, we'll eventually have a world culture, and everyone will get along.

But in the present .... dear Lord, how can someone just say 'Diversity is Strength' when they look at Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, Central/Eastern Europe in the 20th Century (I'm not talking about the Jews), the Balkans (not just Yugoslavia, but the Turkish empire before that), Armenia/Azerbaijan (Ngorno-Karabakh), Libya, almost any African country, India today, Sri Lanka, Burma, ....

A good book to read on this is Amy Chua's World On Fire. She's a very smart lady (although I'm glad she was not my mother), and relates the experience of the Chinese minority throughout Asia.

America has been the great exception, sort of. Leave the Africa-American experience aside for a moment, I think it's worked pretty well in the US because we brought in lots of different groups over time, into a country that was intensely pro-assimilation: violently so, in fact. You HAD to be a patriot and love America. The sort of hate-America stuff taught by liberal teachers today in our schools would have been inconceivable until recently. And the immigrants were distant from their homelands in every sense. Now, a young Muslim can get on the computer and watch his co-religionists beheading Christians whenever he wants, after finishing his homework regurgitating Howard Zinn's deep hatred of America. So not so much assimilation. No one really objects if the American flag is pulled down at a school and the Mexican flag is raised. (And we note that young leftists are increasingly disdainful of patriotism and the flag, 'just a piece of colored cloth', etc.)

And, with the exception of the Great Depression, the immigrants were joining a growing economy. Everyone could get a piece of the expanding pie -- America being incredibly lucky in its geography: an untouched continent to exploit, and no way hostile countries could touch us.

That's all changed. The Left is pushing hard on the racial fracture line, which has always been there. The Right has only a crude understanding of the importance of American patriotism as the only real anti-racism and driver of unity across racial/religious/ethnic groups, And, worryingly, the Right includes a component which rejects what it calls 'civic nationalism' in favor of 'ethnic nationalism', which may be growing.

In any case, whatever about diversity and strength, in America, it's what we have, and we have to move heaven and earth to make it work. Which is why reactionaries like me are very cautious about bringing in new groups of people to America at the moment.

 

Yes, you've put your finger on one of the pragmatic, pratical problems. What percentage of people, in what expanse of geography, should be allowed to set up a separate state? Should fifty people on my block be able to vote to make us a micro-country?

My own attitude would be, were I advising the California secessionists, to offer exactly that right to counties. So if the Inland Empire wants to remain part of the American Empire, let them. If we wanted to get really prissy, we could try to come up with some sort of algorithm that would draw the boundaries of regions such that they held the minimum of people opposed to the majority wish... if that make sense. A sort of good gerrymandering. Someeone who knows more about graph-processing algorithms than I do could probably suggest an existing program that would do the job.

I suppose such an algorithm would need to be modified to take into account the desirability of following natural geographic features as well, and there are probably other desirable features. In the past, national boundaries were determined by blood and iron, but we have computers.

 

I doubt that. There is lots of highly expensive realestate throughout the region.

And, any significant earthquake will affect a broad area - not just those living on top of some particular fault line.

 

I agree with everything you said before you said you think that "California would become a shining 'City on a Hill' of ethnic harmony and ever-increasing prosperity'".... (Were you joking...?)

I think if it became independent, California would roil for years in horrible, violent, in-fighting -- somewhat like the "Trotskyism" and the "Stalinism" factions fought each other after the founding of the Soviet Union.

For decades, all you had to do was just GO to one of the great cities in California, work reasonably well, avoid doing anything terribly stupid, and you were all but guaranteed to have a great life, a solid, rewarding career, and an excellent, happy retirement. For many years, even if all you had was a liberal arts degree in 'basket-weaving', you could get stitched-into a good company, have a secure job, make good money, and have a bright future ending in a great retirement... and nearly everybody was happy about it, too.

But, over time, in a very real way, California 'suffered' from too much of the 'the good life' after World War II, and the aftereffects of that unprecedented prosperity left them detached from reality and in a perpetuated state of state-centric, euphoric delusion. They became arrogant, reckless, and completely unappreciative of their good fortune -- and they squandered it on too many ideas and people who were little more than a waste of time and effort. But, they had LOTS that they could throw away, and not even miss it -- so -- they allowed their taxes to skyrocket, and laughed about it, or just looked the other way. After all, nothing really BAD was going to happen to California... was it...?

Now look at what it's turned into.... They're like people who have an enormous hangover after a spectacular party that lasted for decades -- and they blame nearly everybody in the other 49 states for it! Now, if they want to go, then, LET THEM GO!

And the quicker, the better, before their peculiar 'California-esque' mental illness infects the rest of us with any more of their bizarre, hyperliberal hubris and their dangerous, suicidal irresponsibility....

At this point, all I can say to anyone who still wants to live there, is this -- make damn sure you have excellent insurance with a company that is unlikely to go bankrupt, and which will completely cover all damage that you would suffer as a result of a gigantic natural disaster -- especially any involving earthquakes!

 

That does make sense, but probably doesn't leave a whole lot of California wanting to secede, geography-wise at least. A couple of years ago, CalExit was touting a plan to give away those eastern parts to Native Americans, but it's not their land to give away, at least if we use the "self-determination" metric. And if we use land ownership, much of it is owned by the federal government already.

 

Your UK comments are definitely interesting. UK law is not the same as in the US, of course. I doubt Ireland and Scottland are the legal equivalent of states in the US.

I should mention that I do not believe there is ANY chance of any US state leaving the union.

On your division of counties in CA I'd point out that all those issues exist today. There are certainly places where people hate gays, etc. For some of these cases we're already finding that having a national law is important for various reasons. So, I don't moving to county by county laws on those issues is a likely solution.

 

Or, you could choose not to live in CA.

And, it looks like you should stay away from Florida and other gulf states unless you are well inland. And, make sure you have insurance if you live in OK and other tornedo states. Oh and make sure you are on high ground in any of the regions where there are FEMA level floods. And, probably coastlines in general, given ocean rise.

 

That's very good advice, and so for a long time I have made my home FAR from big earthquake zones, FAR from nuclear power plants, FAR from anywhere they have ocean storms and hurricanes, FAR from big rivers that produce floods, and nowhere near where there's damaging tornadoes within about seventy miles. Where's that? Over 6,000 feet above sea level, in the foothills of the Front Range of the Colorado Rocky Mountains, between Colorado Springs and Denver.

Often in life, you find yourself with few choices that you like making about too many things, but in a free country you can always choose WHERE you LIVE.

 

Was I joking? No comment.

Anyway, your and my idea of Paradise may be different from that of our Leftist friends. We probably concentrate on the physical environment, and a reasonably tranquil social environment. They are more concerned with equality and social justice. For instance, about 75% of Black fourth-grade boys in California can't meet the state's reading standards, which I take to mean that they are effectively illiterate. Of course, good Leftists know why this is the case: white racism, which forces them to study things not relevant to them. “Part of this may be structural, in having texts that aren’t relevant to the experiences and legacy of African-American boys,” said Chris Chatmon, founding executive director of the African-American Male Achievement program at the Oakland Unified School District. “When a lot of the curriculum you have access to isn’t familiar, or doesn’t acknowledge your past or your present, you have a tendency not to be engaged with it or want to read it.” [https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06...ornia-boys-dont-meet-state-reading-standards/]

So the Peoples Republic will be able to deal with this. And I can absolutely guarantee you that, after a year or two of the Peoples Republic, Black scores on readin gand maths will equal or better white scores. Or ... more likely, actually ... the reactionary concept of 'right answers' will be recognized as the racist classist sexist construct as it is, and 'scores' will be done away with altogether. Think how happy that will make the kids!!!

(Apropos of nothing: I lived in Bezerkely in the mid-1960s, and then again in the Bay Area in the 1970s. After Texas, I thought I was in Paradise.
I even owned land in Humboldt County ... not for herbal farming. I also lived in LA for a couple of years, a different experience. But north of Ventura ... wonderful. When I give advice to Brits who are making an extended tour of the States, I advise them to start at the bottom of Highway One, and make their way to Seattle.Almost every mile is a delight.

I wish the Peoples Republic of California well!