How is a mass of men, without any training, system or organization or command, structure, many without weapons of any kind, a "well regulated" militia in your view?
Doesnt sound well regulated. do you k now what the word "regulated" meant, in 1776? Im pretty sure that back then, the word "awesome" did not mean "thank you" as it does now.
I'm pretty sure they they would not have considered a mass of men, without any training, system or organization or command, system of structure, many without weapons of any kind, to be a "well regulated" militia. - - - Updated - - - Please cite the federal law that says that a mass of men, without any training, system or organization or command, structure, many without weapons of any kind, a "well regulated" militia. I'm not aware of any such law.
Highly regulated and restricted, of course. Why didn't you mention that? That still doesn't change the question.
Just so I'm clear, you're saying all you need is a $200 tax stamp, and anyone can buy a machine gun just like they can buy a handgun or shotgun?
Predictably, not so simple... Well Regulated The Random House College Dictionary (1980) gives four definitions for the word "regulate," which were all in use during the Colonial period and one more definition dating from 1690 (Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition, 1989). They are: 1) To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc. 2) To adjust to some standard or requirement as for amount, degree, etc. 3) To adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation. 4) To put in good order. [obsolete sense] b. Of troops: Properly disciplined. Obs. rare-1. 1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side. We can begin to deduce what well-regulated meant from Alexander Hamilton's words in Federalist Paper No. 29: The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss. --- The Federalist Papers, No. 29. Hamilton indicates a well-regulated militia is a state of preparedness obtained after rigorous and persistent training. Note the use of 'disciplining' which indicates discipline could be synonymous with well-trained. This quote from the Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 also conveys the meaning of well regulated: Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army. --- Saturday, December 13, 1777. In the passage that follows, do you think the U.S. government was concerned because the Creek Indians' tribal regulations were superior to those of the Wabash or was it because they represented a better trained and disciplined fighting force? That the strength of the Wabash Indians who were principally the object of the resolve of the 21st of July 1787, and the strength of the Creek Indians is very different. That the said Creeks are not only greatly superior in numbers but are more united, better regulated, and headed by a man whose talents appear to have fixed him in their confidence. That from the view of the object your Secretary has been able to take he conceives that the only effectual mode of acting against the said Creeks in case they should persist in their hostilities would be by making an invasion of their country with a powerful body of well regulated troops always ready to combat and able to defeat any combination of force the said Creeks could oppose and to destroy their towns and provisions. --- Saturday, December 13, 1777. I am unacquainted with the extent of your works, and consequently ignorant of the number or men necessary to man them. If your present numbers should be insufficient for that purpose, I would then by all means advise your making up the deficiency out of the best regulated militia that can be got. --- George Washington (The Writings of George Washington, pp. 503-4, (G.P. Putnam & Sons, pub.)(1889)) The above quote is clearly not a request for a militia with the best set of regulations. (For brevity the entire passage is not shown and this quote should not be construed to imply Washington favored militias, in fact he thought little of them, as the full passage indicates.) But Dr Sir I am Afraid it would blunt the keen edge they have at present which might be keept sharp for the Shawnese &c: I am convinced it would be Attended by considerable desertions. And perhaps raise a Spirit of Discontent not easily Queld amongst the best regulated troops, but much more so amongst men unused to the Yoak of Military Discipline. --- Letter from Colonel William Fleming to Col. Adam Stephen, Oct 8, 1774, pp. 237-8. (Documentary History of Dunmore's War, 1774, Wisconsin historical society, pub. (1905)) And finally, a late-17th century comparison between the behavior of a large collection of seahorses and well-regulated soldiers: One of the Seamen that had formerly made a Greenland Voyage for Whale-Fishing, told us that in that country he had seen very great Troops of those Sea-Horses ranging upon Land, sometimes three or four hundred in a Troop: Their great desire, he says, is to roost themselves on Land in the Warm Sun; and Whilst they sleep, they apppoint one to stand Centinel, and watch a certain time; and when that time's expir'd, another takes his place of Watching, and the first Centinel goes to sleep, &c. observing the strict Discipline, as a Body of Well-regulated Troops --- (Letters written from New-England, A. D. 1686. P. 47, John Dutton (1867)) The quoted passages support the idea that a well-regulated militia was synonymous with one that was thoroughly trained and disciplined, and as a result, well-functioning. That description fits most closely with the "to put in good order" definition supplied by the Random House dictionary. The Oxford dictionary's definition also appears to fit if one considers discipline in a military context to include or imply well-trained. What about the Amendment's text itself? Considering the adjective "well" and the context of the militia clause, which is more likely to ensure the security of a free state, a militia governed by numerous laws (or the proper amount of regulation [depending on the meaning of "well"] ) or a well-disciplined and trained militia? This brief textual analysis also suggests "to put in good order" is the correct interpretation of well regulated, signifying a well disciplined, trained, and functioning militia. And finally, when regulated is used as an adjective, its meaning varies depending on the noun its modifying and of course the context. For example: well regulated liberty (properly controlled), regulated rifle (adjusted for accuracy), and regulated commerce (governed by regulations) all express a different meaning for regulated. This is by no means unusual, just as the word, bear, conveys a different meaning depending on the word it modifies: bearing arms, bearing fruit, or bearing gifts.
Basically you're wrong. Alright I’m sold, what’s the first step? This is where we come in. You can buy an in stock gun and begin transfer paperwork immediately (still takes 6 months before you get approved). This is the hardest part because machine gun paperwork takes a while. This is not like buying a pistol or rifle, the background checks for machine guns or NFA transfers take at least 2 months (now currently 6 months), so be patient. We can also broker an out of state gun, or simply transfer if you have a collection in another state. Just tell us what you want and we can get it for you. We've been an NFA dealer for nearly 15 years and remain Michigan's most experienced "brick and mortar" machine gun dealer. http://sheridanarms.com/machine-gun-ownership/ It has been unlawful since 1934 (The National Firearms Act) for civilians to own machine guns without special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department. Machine guns are subject to a $200 tax every time their ownership changes from one federally registered owner to another, and each new weapon is subject to a manufacturing tax when it is made, and it must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in its National Firearms Registry. To become a registered owner, a complete FBI background investigation is conducted, checking for any criminal history or tendencies toward violence, and an application must be submitted to the ATF including two sets of fingerprints, a recent photo, a sworn affidavit that transfer of the NFA firearm is of "reasonable necessity," and that sale to and possession of the weapon by the applicant "would be consistent with public safety." The application form also requires the signature of a chief law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in the applicant's residence. Since the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Machine guns which were manufactured prior to the Act's passage are regulated under the National Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot ordinarily be sold to or owned by civilians. http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html
Didn't say it wouldn't take longer, just that you can buy them and own them like any other gun except for the tax stamp (which takes the time), that is, if you have the money.
You cannot, as I've proved. You cannot buy any machine gun manufactured after 1986. To buy one older than they you have to go through a comprehensive federal background check and registration.
I didn't say you could buy any machine gun. I said you can buy and own a machine gun just like you can buy and own any gun except for the tax stamp. You go through the same background check to get a handgun or rifle if you buy from a dealer.
Just to be clear, you're now saying you have to go through the same federal background checks, registration and fingerprinting, etc, to buy a handgun as you do a machine gun?
Now you are just splitting hairs. I have answered your original question about whether people should legally own machine guns and the answer is yes. Can they legally own machine guns? Yes. Legally was the question, not your minutia.
psssssssssst, he said it takes longer and costs more money. as far as that federal (*)(*)(*)(*) goes, it is done through the licensing process. That's why it takes a bit longer. At the end, you get an FFL which allows you to purchase and own a machine gun. Mayhap it'll be a pre-1986, but it's still a machine gun. Sure you have hoops to jump through, but you can still own one legally, so he IS right. If what you say is right (can't own one) then why the process and why do others own them?
Exactly my point. It's so silly to claim that you can buy a machine gun just like you can buy a handgun. Thanks.
The question of whether people can legally own machine guns was never in dispute, despite your diversion into the now established fallacy that you can buy machine guns just like handguns. The question was always whether people should be able to buy machine guns and whether the people in 1789-91 could have envisioned such things when they ratified the 2A. - - - Updated - - - Could you quote my post where I said no one can own a machine gun? Otherwise we'll just let your post wither for the giant straw man it is.
I don't think anyone claimed that. We've been maintaining all along that in order to get a machine gun, as you called it, takes a lot of money and time to get a license and is regulated by the Fed gov. (# 115) It is easier to get a handgun permit to ccw than it is to get an FFL, but both require licensing (ccw in most states) So, no one has claimed such a silly thing. It is licensing, and IMO, that still infringes on the 2nd A. If you have an FFL, you can buy a machine gun, just like a handgun or semi-auto rifle. Even easier................
Read thru the posts. Hoosier was claiming that buying a machine gun was no different than buying a handgun. Thanks for backing me up. I don't know what ccw and FFL means. Did you actually read the thread before making this conclusion? A silly thing for Hoosier to claim, I agree with you.
