Can an a Christian God exist?

Not really. Think about it.

What is more reasonable, the idea that a series of guys over the centuries wrote single issues of stories that all ended up in one book centuries later or that a committee of writers got together in one location at one time and wrote all of the stories and put them in a book?

Which scenario would realistically produce a better result? We know that a committee wrote the Koran. So why is it unreasonable to think that a committee wrote the Bible?

We know that the first scenario is highly unlikely because there's no copy of a Bible before the one of 692. There're just stories of them. Where's a complete authentic Bible before that time? There isn't one.

Use your knowledge and think.

 

What were the text supporting Christianity when Constantine declared it the state religion, in the 300's? Your assertion seems plausible, but it does not have any mainstream support, that I know of.

 

Who said that they were using text? They might have had some basic manuscripts outlining their fairy tale but it wasn't an actual book. Constantine could have declared Christianity the state religion without knowing any details about it at all. And if you think a group of clerics from around the Med all got together to review a bunch of scrolls that most had no idea existed and pick out the best ones I think that's being too gullible. How long do you think it would take for each person to read all of them and for the group to reach a consensus?

Remember, everyone has a vested interest in selling the fairy tale. It's up to you to be smart enough to know what you are being asked to buy. Pick out any book or series of books from the Bible and ask yourself how the writer wrote the original and then had it duplicated countless times throughout the centuries and for all of the stories to end up in one place at one time in front of Constantine. This is the ancient world we're talking about.

The Old Testament characters and stories are summarized in Sirach chapters 44-51 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Sirach+44-51&version=CEB. That's all you need to know to write the entire Old Testament. The Christian fairy tale was contemporary so it could easily be written. And don't forget that the Apocrypha is an integral part of the Bible.

Do you have a hardcopy Bible? My NKJV has 1,763 pages, 6 X 9 inches. It doesn't include the Apocrypha, which was tossed in 1885. Now, imagine how long it would take you to write all of that by hand in printed capital letters with a quill and ink on papyrus. You can't use numbered chapters and verses or modern punctuation or paragraphs.

When the committee wrote the Koran do you think it wrote it with numbered chapters and verses? It was revised to mirror the format that the Bible committees later adopted. Today even nutty muslim clerics think that Mohammed wrote it that way.

 

Interesting. Well fortunately, I've seen enough contradictions and absurdities to excuse that Bible as a god given document.

 

This is a joke right? Yes, believe it or not canonization of texts is actually a thing, with a long historical tradition and context (which is why collections such as the Bible capture the tensions and inconsistencies of the various theological worldviews within the tradition itself). Furthermore, you yourself talked about having fragments of manuscripts of the various Pauline letters and gospels in Greek - we have existing fragments of those Greek manuscripts now - some are virtually the same as the Vulgate translation (and we have manuscripts in which detailed differences are recorded and documented) - from an anthropological and historical viewpoint, your idea is not only nonsensical, it's ludicrous.

 

The problem is that none of those fragments are in an ancient Greek alphabet. They are fakes. You need to do some research and start using your knowledge. You will never see a clearly legible copy of any of those fragments. They are always slightly out of focus and poorly lit and very small. I have never been able to increase their size and get a clear image.

Do you think you could write a whole book with just a tattered fragment of letters that you can't see? I hope you are more careful in your own financial dealings than you are in believing the biblical fairy tale.

 

This is absolute nonsense. I'm not a theist, but I have studied biblical scholarship extensively. What you write here is simply not true. The fragments are in koine greek, they are legible (if they are fakes, why would they be illegible??? - this doesn't even make sense), we have several existing fragments today reliably dated, there are numerous historical references to these texts (prior to your date for origin), papyrus typically only lasts for a few hundred years and gave way to new writings by scribes to fit the needs of the communities they were a part of (eventually being written on parchment much later), and there are no peer reviewed academic papers that even remotely suggest what you say here. This is tin-foil hat stuff.

 

Koine Greek is the Modern Greek alphabet. It's just a fake term made up to sell the Bible story that it was written in ancient times.

Do you know what the real Ten Commandments are? Do you know when the Apocrypha was deleted from the Bible? Do you know when Yeshua became "Jesus"? How many times did Moses go up and down the mountain with the stone tablets in his arms?

 

RE: Can an a Christian God exist? >
※→ The Wyrd of Gawd, et al,

I find these questions to be a smoke screen and not a teaching aid.

(COMMENT)

People often present these questions; but rarely supply a straight and unambiguous answers; followed by the explanation (ie Yes, and why).

I think that anyone that looks at the record, understands most of the timeline. But terms like the "Bible" and the various versions are often misunderstood. The Canonized Scripture and the Books that were assembled and compiled much later (ultimately included into the new testament), were written at different times, and translated by different authorities.

As for the "Apocrypha," which is a controversial religious text, is another question that is convoluted. The burning and destruction of Ancient Heretical Religious Literature and Medieval Prohibited Books, as well as other Suspicious Revelatory Writings will always make the motive for both the christian censorship and questions on the authenticity of versions --- difficult, if not impossible, to understand.

In my view, the explanation and counter-explanations for the actions taken by the various authorities only puts the entire theology in further question; especially when it comes to the description of psychic, supernatural, paranormal and other mysterious events, experiences and iconic angelic beings.

∑ -- Just one man's opinion;
Most Respectfully,
R

 

So just admit that you are clueless about your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish religious fairy tale. Those are simple questions that a knowledgable person can easily answer.

So here are the answers:

1. Do you know what the real Ten Commandments are?

Answer: The real Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 34:10-28. (Ten Commandment verbiage is Exodus 34:1-26). Those are the commandments that were written on the stone tablets and called the Ten Commandments. The ones in Exodus chapter 20 are fakes that were not written on the stone tables and they are not called the Ten Commandments. The ones in Deuteronomy chapter 5 were written on stone tablets but they are not called the Ten Commandments.






I gave the links to the videos because they clearly explain what the Ten Commandments are. You may find them of value. Of course you can always read the story for yourself, Exodus chapters 19-34, and take notes of what you read in your own words and see if it helps you to understand the story.

It's important to know what the real Ten Commandments (Exodus 34:10-2 are because all of the biblical stories are based upon them. The miracles are based upon Exodus 34:10 which is not a commandment but a promise, like verse 11. The actual commandments are in verses 12-26.

2. Do you know when the Apocrypha was deleted from the Bible?

Answer: The Apocrypha was an integral part of every Bible version until 1881, just 136 years ago. Two English guys, Westcott & Hort, tossed it and everyone obeyed except for the Catholics http://rockingodshouse.com/why-were-14-books-apocrypha-removed-from-the-bible-in-1881/

3. Do you know when Yeshua became "Jesus"?

Answer: A couple of Dutch con men got sued in England in 1832 for printing phony Bibles. The character Yeshua's name was spelled "Jesus" in the lawsuit but it became popular although it was mentioned only once in the court document. https://www.quora.com/If-the-letter...600-how-did-Jesus-get-his-name-2013-years-ago

4. How many times did Moses go up and down the mountain with the stone tablets in his arms?

Answer: Moses was on the mountain and received the stone tablets. He went down with them in his arms, saw that the people were exercising freedom of religion, got ticked off and broke them. He and his thugs then killed about 3,000 people. He then chipped out a new pair of abets, lugged them up the mountain, got them engraved, and lugged them back down the mountain. So the correct answer is three (3) times.

In any case if you understand those basic things it might help you in your discussions about Bible issues.

 

That's only once and a half. He went down with the tablets and threw a hiissy fit and then went up and down again. That's once up and twice down which is once and a half of up and down.

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

 

You have ZERO proof for your version of the origin of the Bible.

 

Sorry, Sparky. I have no "version". I am challenging your "version", and I did so first. Adult discourse rules require you to provide evidence or retract your claim.

Go.

 

My proof is that the Codex Amiatinus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus is the original source. You can't produce an earlier complete copy.

 

That's the earliest known complete Bible. The Bible is made up of many different books. Manuscripts of all of these individual books predate the Codex Amiatinus. Accordingly, your claim that the Bible was written in the 7th Century AD is incorrect.

Try again.

 

Seperate individual books are not the Bible, which is a collection of 84 books https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/Common-English-Bible-CEB/#booklist.

You don't have a complete copy of any of those books in an ancient Greek alphabet. Produce it if you do have such a copy.

 

You're really off the deep end. Not gonna play your passive-aggressive, move the goalposts, whack-a-mole game.

 

Please be kind enough to post a link to your evidence whenever it's convenient. Thank you.

 

The existence of evil is not a disproof of the existence of God, but God is our solution to the problem of evil.

You seem to be using this formulation:

i) If God exists, then evil cannot exist.
ii) If evil exists, then God cannot exist.
iii) Since evil exists, it follows that God does not exist.

But there’s no reason to think that God and evil are logically incompatible. There’s no explicit contradiction between them. Therefore, the logical problem of evil fails to prove any inconsistency between God and evil.

More than that: we can actually prove that God and evil are logically consistent. If God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting evil, then God and evil are logically consistent. This is certainly logically possible. Therefore, the co-existence of God and evil is logically possible.

In the Christian belief system, the chief purpose of life is not happiness, but the knowledge of God. Now some misunderstand the Christian religion and think that if God exists, then His goal for human life is happiness in this world. God’s role is to provide comfortable environment for His human pets. But on the Christian view this is false. We are not God’s pets, and man’s end is not happiness in this world, but the knowledge of God, which will ultimately bring true and everlasting human fulfillment.

And the Christian faith is quite clear on the belief that Mankind is in a state of rebellion against God and His purpose. The Christian is not surprised at the human evil in the world; on the contrary, he expects it. The Bible says that God has given mankind over to the sin it has chosen; He does not interfere to stop it, but lets human depravity run its course.

Thirdly, The knowledge of God spills over into eternal life. In the Christian view, this life is not all there is. Jesus promised eternal life to all who place their trust in him as their Savior and Lord. In the afterlife God will reward those who have borne their suffering in courage and trust with an eternal life of unspeakable joy. The apostle Paul lived a life of incredible suffering. Yet he wrote, “We do not lose heart. For this slight, momentary affliction is preparing us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, because we look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen, for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal” (II Cor. 4:16-1. Paul imagines a scale, as it were, in which all the sufferings of this life are placed on one side, while on the other side is placed the glory that God will bestow on his children in heaven. The weight of glory is so great that it is literally beyond comparison with the suffering. Moreover, the longer we spend in eternity the more the sufferings of this life shrink toward an infinitesimal moment. That’s why Paul could call them “a slight and momentary affliction”—they were simply overwhelmed by the ocean of divine eternity and joy which God lavishes on those who trust Him.

And, The knowledge of God is an incommensurable good. To know God, the source of infinite goodness and love, is an incomparable good, the fulfillment of human existence. The sufferings of this life cannot even be compared to it. Thus, the person who knows God, no matter what he suffers, no matter how awful his pain, can still say, “God is good to me,” simply by virtue of the fact that he knows God, an incomparable good.

These four Christian doctrines greatly reduce any improbability which evil would seem to throw on the existence of God.

And of course, God provides the best explanation of the complex order in the universe. We now know that life-prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life-permitting universe like ours. How much more probable?

A change in the strength of gravity or of the atomic weak force by only one part in 10^100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. The recently discovered acceleration of the universe’s expansion is fine-tuned to around one part in 10^120. Oxford physicist Roger Penrose calculates that the odds of our universe’s special low entropy condition, on which our lives depend, having arisen by chance is at least as small as about one part in 10^10(123). Penrose comments, “I cannot even recall seeing anything else in physics whose accuracy is known to approach, even remotely, a figure like one part in 10^10(123). ” There are multiple quantities and constants which must be fine-tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. And it’s not just each quantity which must be exquisitely fine-tuned; their ratios to one another must be also finely-tuned. So improbability is multiplied by improbability by improbability until our minds are reeling in incomprehensible numbers.

There is no physical reason why these constants and quantities should possess the values they do. The one-time agnostic physicist Paul Davies comments, “Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact.” Similarly, Fred Hoyle remarks, “A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics.” Robert Jastrow, the former head of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, calls this the most powerful evidence for the existence of God even to come out of science.

The view that Christian theists have always held, that there is an intelligent designer of the universe, seems to make much more sense than the atheistic view that the universe, when it popped into being uncaused out of nothing, just happened to be by chance fine-tuned to an incomprehensible precision for the existence of intelligent life.

But I think that most people who reject God because of the evil in the world don’t really do so because of intellectual difficulties; rather it’s an emotional problem. They just don’t like a God who would permit them or others to suffer and therefore they want nothing to do with Him.

As the Christian sees things, God does not stand idly by, coolly observing the suffering of His creatures. He enters into and shares our suffering. He endures the anguish of seeing his son, the second person of the Trinity, consigned to the bitterly cruel and shameful death of the cross. Christ was prepared to endure the agonies of hell itself . . . in order to overcome sin, and death, and the evils that afflict our world, and to confer on us a life more glorious that we can imagine. He was prepared to suffer on our behalf, to accept suffering of which we can form no conception.

Jesus endured a suffering beyond all comprehension: He bore the punishment for the sins of the whole world. None of us can comprehend that suffering. Though He was innocent, He voluntarily took upon himself the punishment that we deserved. And why? Because He loves us. God loves us.

When we comprehend His sacrifice and His love for us, this puts the problem of evil in an entirely different perspective. For now we see clearly that the true problem of evil is the problem of our evil. Filled with sin and morally guilty before God, the question we face is not how God can justify Himself to us, but how we can be justified before Him.

So God is the only solution to the problem of evil. God is the final answer to the problem of evil, for He redeems us from evil and takes us into the everlasting joy of an incommensurable good, fellowship with Himself. But back to your original point, you are right, God must have complete power over evil in order for Him to be the solution to evil. A lessor God simply won't do the trick.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-problem-of-evil

 

If.... God can give genuine freedom of choice to humans.... and to angels......
then it would seem logical for God to give Himself /Herself... .genuine freedom of choice as well.......
so the possibility of God going "dark side"... .is I suppose theoretically possible????

 

Is it possible for God to change His own nature, and if He does, is He still God?

I think this is what happened with Christ. God changed His nature from Law to Love, and quite possibly limited his own power in the process. 'Law' God quite frequently intervened in the lives of his 'subjects' to set them back on the path of His Law, much as a parent does with children. 'Love' God must let His children be free to make their own path, acheive (or not!) the potential that 'Law' God instilled in them.

We cannot be forced to make the right choices and still be free willed.

 

More cases of pots judging the Potter.

 

Well said. And I know you agree......Love has it's hard side as well as it's soft side. Those in Rebellion don't understand or even like the hard side.

 

lol, sure, but why? More importantly, all darkness has to come from that god.