Can We Secure Our Borders Now?

I'm not an economist, & I don't pretend to know all the answers. But the fact is that American capitalism got us into the exasperating situation we currently find ourselves, & I am rapidly loosing confidence that that system is either capable or willing to get us out. I don't dispute that much of your post is true, that doesn't erase or ease the growing discomfort a growing number of Americans are feeling with the disparity of wealth in this country. Some disparity always exists, of course. But that disparity seemed to shrink between the end of WWII & the 1970s. Since the 1980s, that trend reversed itself & the disparity of wealth has consistently grown, & many Americans are feeling quite frustrated. Historically, most countries that end up with this kind of economic disparity face a lot of turmoil & internal conflict. I hope America finds a solution before that happens.

 

So, since Trump is reversing that income disparity trend, you support him; right?

 

I don't understand how you can claim Trump is reversing that trend. Trump's tax cut was designed specifically to benefit the wealthiest families in America, including his own. Trump has done nothing to improve the economic future of America or Americans. He has a lower rate of unemployment that anyone for decades, but many of those new jobs are minimum wage positions with no benefits. Many are also part-time jobs, which force many Americans to work more than one job to survive. He promised "better" healthcare for all Americans, but has spent his entire administration trying to kill healthcare access for millions of Americans who happen to be on Obamacare, without making any attempt whatsoever of creating or finding a replacement for them. He has removed us from every economic trade agreement we were a part of, & done it in a severe, selfish, non-cooperative disrespectful manner toward other participants. Trump has made America an untrusted & untrustworthy partner for any kind of agreement with other nations. Under Trump, America's word is tarnished & devalued to the point of dead in the water. Trump has spuriously & unpredictably abandoned our long-term allies around the world, for reasons that seem unnecessary or unintelligable. He abandoned almost the entire world when he pulled us out of the Paris Accords for fixing global warming. He abandoned our long-term allies on the field of battle in Syria, leaving them to an uncertain & harsh fate. He tried to abandon our friends in Ukraine, by withholding badly needed military aid approved by Congress, for personal political reasons, allowing Putin & the Russians to make gains in their ongoing invasion of Ukraine. He constantly sides with dictators & authoritative rulers around the world, while devaluing & disengaging from democracies threatened by those self-serving leaders. He sucks all the air from the national media networks with his insistence on public attention for himself. Every news outlet has stopped covering any news not directly connected to Trump in some way, leaving the impression that nothing is going on in the world except Trump.

I could go on & on & on. It's exhausting, & depressing. America deserves better, & I sincerely hope the American voters wake up to this important fact before election day 2020.

 

OK. I give up. You win. Despite having recently read a few articles on the subject, I could only find older ones.

It's even hard to find current data.


"Wages Low Skilled in the United States increased to 1960 USD/Month in 2018 from 1760 USD/Month in 2017."

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wages-low-skilled

"Wages Low Skilled in the United States is expected to be 2150.00 USD/Month by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations. In the long-term, the United States Wages Low Skilled is projected to trend around 2200.00 USD/Month in 2020, according to our econometric models."

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wages-low-skilled#forecast

Note that the data for last year displays an 11% increase, while the projection for this year represents an additional 9.7% increase.

From the same page, high skilled workers' pay increased 4.4% in 2018 over 2017.

I got frustrated trying to find data points for the top 1%.

 

What you found is interesting. I appreciate your efforts.

 

How two housekeepers took on the president — and revealed that his company employed undocumented immigrants
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ff5b5c-0a15-11ea-bd9d-c628fd48b3a0_story.html

Open Borders Donnie is not tough on illegal immigration; he has a long history of hiring them.

 

I realize that even if the increass of income of those low-skilled workers far outpaces the increase of the top 1%, the income gap will continue to expand.

On its face, I don't see it as a problem. The only issue that I see is one of political power. It's not the fact of richness that I fear, it's disproportionate political power. Their vote, or their contributions, should be prevented from counting for more than yours or mine. The Soroses and Kochs shouldn't have more political influence than you or me.

 

Surely you remember the absolute storm of garbage thrown at Trump with the accusation of running prison camps for kids?

Are you aware that issue was the result of Obama's plans- and as the problem grew and Trump came in, the dems blamed Obama's mistake on Trump?
Are you aware that that particular problem is now greatly reduced?

Obama's wide-open amnesty plan reduced the crossings outside the ports of entry, but jammed the system with hordes of people asking for amnesty. While that counts up on different lists, the problems obviously were worse with all the scam amnesty claims, which took longer and cost much more to deal with.
And as far as the year-to year- look again.

 

You must not be aware of how he cooked the books

Obama's Deportation Claims Disputed | Center for Immigration ...

https://cis.org › Announcements › Obama-Deportation-Claims-Disputed
Apr 19, 2013 - However, according to internal and previously un-published ICE statistics, immigration enforcement activity, especially in the interior, has been ...

High deportation figures are misleading - Los Angeles Times

https://www.latimes.com › la-na-obama-deportations-20140402-story
Apr 1, 2014 - Immigrants illegally in the interior U.S. are less likely to be deported under President Obama, contrary to widespread belief.

 

Then it should be legal immigration, not illegal immigration.

 

80% of the people don't know what they want. They look to the media to tell them what sounds good.

There's a lack of independent critical thinking skills in modern society today.

 

Watching the current lineup of Presidential candidates reinforces this very problem. K. Harris just ended her quest for the nomination when she couldn't raise sufficient funds to continue the campaign. She was in large measure a victim of the billionaire candidate that just announced his candidacy & threw $30 million of his own money into a barrage of ads that blanketed the media & overwhelmed anything Harris could afford. We now have a billionaire President, & at least three near billionaire Democrats running against him. All this made me realize within the past week, just how accurate Bernie Sanders' claims that the rich rule America really were. That recognition forced me to feel what so many Americans have been feeling for more than a decade. It was unpleasant. And, it forced me to take a good, hard look at Bernie again after basically dismissing him for most of this campaign. Bernie has been focused & consistent in his messaging throughout, & I'm seeing that his message is highly accurate. I agree with you here. I don't care how rich someone is--good for them--but I don't want wealth to determine power, & right now, it does.

 

1. Yes. I saw the videos, & feel the criticism was well deserved. I don't support any policy that separates children--including infants--from parents, & incarcerating them for undetermined lengths of time. That is inhumane & immoral, & should NEVER be a part of any American President's official policy.
2. Yes. I'm aware that Obama faced a far different situation, where children were crossing into the U.S. without adults accompanying them, & Obama had to devise emergency facilities to house, feed & care for them while their parents or relatives could be located & they reunited with family. Trump CAUSED his predicament by deciding to separate children from parents AFTER they arrived here together, then incarcerating them separately for undetermined time spans, in defiance of their human rights. Plus, Trump insisted on bringing criminal charges against illegals, which caused overcrowding in the facilities, & resulted in the deaths of at least five children unnecessarily. Obama simply tried getting the kids back with family ASAP. Trump keeps them separated & incarcerated. Bid difference.
3. No. On what evidence do you base that statement?
4. You may be right. But since Trump supporters are against ILLEGAL immigration, why should they be upset over forcing immigrants to go thru existing LEGAL routes? Gee; Trumpsters are NEVER SATISFIED.
5. Obama DEPORTED more illegals than any President since the 1960s, & more than all five of his immediate predecessors COMBINED. That's a different measure than what your graph shows. But it's a statistic that should make conservatives & Trump supporters happy rather than angry. I don't think Trump supporters are incapable of accepting the truth. I think they are unwilling.

 

Unfortunately it will be 2021 before the borders can be secured.

 

That is a grossly inaccurate statement. I'm a democrat. I've talked with many other democrats about the issues & their personal feelings on those issues, & I can't name one single individual democrat that favors what Republicans refer to as "open borders." I don't either. My sense is that Democrats & Republicans are much closer to agreeing here than most on either side suspect. It seems we're living in an era where communications have broken down to the point where no one on one side is talking to anyone on the other side, so no one knows the truth about how the opposition really feels. Somehow, we need to get beyond the distrust & mind sets, & learn to talk to & listen to each other. Then, we can work together to fix things again.

 

Maybe.

I hope so.

If the Democrats were to lose their majority in the House this upcoming election, how much damage to the country would they vindictively wreak?

 

I responded to this same post earlier in the day, but saw a new report for today that connects with your post. I wanted to add an additional response to your #3 above. I just found out that today, 12/6/19, a 16 year old Honduran boy, incarcerated at the border under the Trump policy, was sick yesterday with a temperature of 103*, but refused medical attention by border authorities. Early this morning he was found dead in his cell. Why don't you tell me and other forum readers how much better the border situation is getting under Trump? I don't see it.

 

3.- Based on news reports showing previous filled facilities empty- video, not just statements. Here's a quote from an article on The Guardian:

"There were nearly 2,000 empty beds in two detention centers last week, with a facility in Dilley, Texas, at 26% capacity and a facility in Berks county, Pennsylvania, at 19% capacity. On 1 April, the third family shelter was temporarily changed into a facility for adult women only."

4. Trump supporters certainly are not objecting to bringing immigrants to the legal ports of entry; that is the objective, not the problem. That is the purpose of the wall as well- to make crossing in places other than the official ports of entry far more difficult. It the left objects to illegal immigration too, why do they want to leave the bulk of the 1800 mile border open to walk-overs when we are having millions of them do it?

5. The graph specifically stated it showed apprehensions, or the number captured. Remember that the capture rate is around 30% of the number believed to have entered. The number deported is obviously going to be closely related to the number captured. So currently, (the 2019 line) our captures are high. But as deportations take awhile to process, we can expect the numbers of deportations to rise substantially. There is no conflict there.

Obama's plan had a serious flaw in that it made the process of application for amnesty a "walk-in, walk away and don't report back" process- it turned many loose immediately that under other conditions would have been held for deportation. Also it was a far more time-consuming process- and attractive to a great many who were not at all qualified as an easy entry option. That overloaded the system on that end, which also taxed resources on the field people actually patrolling the borders, as well as the judges who have to process all the amnesty claims as well as contested deportations. System overload and back-logged due to very poor foresight. Now I won't give the government credit for much foresight on anything, but this situation was particularly bad, and it was Obama's doing that created it. I don't think he intended it, just failed to consider the consequences of his changes in rules.

Kids are commonly separated from parents in legal processes. While it's certainly not a desirable thing, it's also something that previously was an uncommon issue in amnesty entries. Between the nature of the changes in amnesty procedure and some other things, it became popular to bring kids- I suspect on the basis of getting more lenient treatment and privilege than might be encountered for someone just being caught in an illegal crossing. It brings sympathy into play as well as difficulty in accommodating the kids. We also have many reports of the drug cartels promoting it, and many coming in with kids- that weren't their kids at all. That load caused the CPB to make a shift in resources and manpower which in turn reduced the border patrols ability to intercept drugs- and benefit cartels.

Micro-managing of something so complex,, especially by people who have no expertise is invariably a disaster. The public has no real expertise here- and neither do most politicians. Yet both have become extreme critics, and the truth is that is has far less to do with the facts of immigration than it does with the anti-Trump emotional issues of the democrats. I know that, you know that. It doesn't help the problems to deny it.

 

3. Your point about more space &/or more rooms is fine, but it's still separation of families & incarceration for undetermined time spans, which is inherently inhumane & against human rights for such a minor offense.
4. Then why has Trump effectively closed down most of the former asylum offices along the border? How can he in good faith, claim to want to strengthen & fix the legal system of immigration while simultaneously closing it down? Isn't that hypocritical?
5a. I agree with your points here, but the problem continues. Something as simple as increasing the number of judges to determine the cases there is one possible solution. Why hasn't that been done? Why does it now take over a year to get a hearing? Why are children being kept apart from their parents needlessly for months at a time, due to a dysfunctional court system? Why hasn't Trump found solutions instead of continuing to add more problems to the situation?
5b. If we assume you're right here, then why not simply fix the problems Obama caused, without destroying the entire system? Trump seems more motivated to kill anything Obama touched than to fix what was wrong. I don't doubt Obama made mistakes. Like you & me, he was & is human. But he didn't ruin everything. Some of what he did was good & helpful. Some of what he did actually worked. Why not keep what works & fix what doesn't? Why destroy it all just to disassociate from Obama? Trump is a small man in a big body. He's incapable of working with others, or sharing recognition for a job well done. For him, it's him only. . .nobody else counts. For me, that in itself, is unAmerican.
5c. I'm sure there are examples for everything you describe here, but my question is, why can't we simply address those issues along with whatever others necessary to get the job done? Why is it taking years instead of days to complete an application? Why are innocent families being held in prison-like facilities for months on end, instead of simply being processed & dealt with humanely? Even if all of them are guilty of crossing the border illegally, is it really that important to make our point, that we become willing to inflict all that pain, stress, separation, incarceration & debt onto them for months or years on end? Somewhere along the way, I feel Americans who support this obsessive travesty, have lost their inner connection with what America is supposed to stand for.
5d. I don't disagree with you here completely, but would add the impact of Trump's anti-Obama obsession & the same with his supporters. Sometimes that really gets in the way & makes bad situations worse. America has always shown an ability to resolve problems--even difficult ones--by working together. Now, we aren't. And, it's NOT all the fault of the leftists.

 

This stuff happens on most college campuses.

It would go a long way toward reconciliation if the left simply stopped attacking people.

 

So, you are simply unable to come to terms with the facts. Nothing new here, we see that everyday, no matter what the facts are, try an retain something to blame Trump for. Go ahead, knock yourself out.

All a prospective immigrant has to do to avoid all this unpleasantness- IS FOLLOW THE DAMN RULES.
Wonder why nobody on the left wants to hear that?
Simple. You can't blame Trump for it.

 

According to the news I've seen & read, Trump has not only closed the border to illegals, but effectively shut down the legal immigration system as well, thus preventing immigrants from doing what you suggest. I blame Trump because right now Trump is the man in charge of making these decisions, & I, as a free American, disagree with him.

 

Current legal immigration levels are right at 1 million in 2019, based on the first quarter report of 257,000 people. That was an increase over the previous year.
Trump is without question focused on the nature of the people granted entry rather than the volume, and I think that is not only his proper duty- it is long overdue. Your mother told you to be careful who you hang around with because the quality of your environment is affected by the character of those you keep company with. Vetting immigrants doesn't exclude anyone arbitrarily, but it does mean we verify the identity and records of people asking for entry, so that we can keep our society healthy. Now we have had our border services overwhelmed in recent years- and that insures that the vetting process will be poor. The volume should have a limit, for many reasons- but being able to keep the quality of our own social environment healthy is a major one, and the capacity of processing people is not an infinite resource..

The net annual gain of our population based on the number of births less deaths is 1.6 million- thus we are adding immigrants to our population almost as fast as it is growing internally. At the same time, the birth rates among immigrants appears to be substantially higher than others- so they have a share of the internal growth rate too. I don't object to immigration, but I do want it to be controlled and beneficial to the nation and our society. Teddy Roosevelt said it well long ago-

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

 

I agree with everything you stated in your post. I agree generally with your quote from T. Roosevelt as well, but with the qualifier that any 1st generation immigrant to America will always be affected in some ways by his/her birth culture, language, beliefs, teachings, etc--especially if they immigrate as an adult. Younger immigrants will be less affected, & the younger they are, the less their home culture will linger within. That's one big reason Democrats support allowing the Dreamers a legal avenue to citizenship. They came here as young children, lived here during their growing years, adapted to & adopted American culture, language, & values. They are already Americans, just like you or me, & as living Americans, should NOT be forced to return to their birthplaces where they would feel totally out of place.

 

I generally agree, including on the dreamers. However, we need to be aware that whenever we do things like that- make a change that deviates from the original terms- we set precedent, and invite the issue to grow.