Can you name something "Good" about Islam?

In practice, when has jizya been less than zakat?

If so, why did Muslim empires see their revenue fall when non-Muslims began converting to Islam?

 

Secular in the sense that religion and politics are not fused like it is in Islam.

 

No kidding, I just said Muslims fight each other all the time, but they aren't second-class citizens like the Copts are considered. Why can't they freely build or even repair a church? We know some Copts and they told a story of a priest who was killed for simply performing a marriage ceremony between a Copt and a former Muslim.

Yes, and people of all relgions or no religion pay the same rates.

Not nearly as innocent as you pretend. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/10/egypts-muslim-brotherhood-convert-islam-or-pay-jiz/ Its basically protection money, like the Mafia levies. No wonder those Muslim Brotherhood creeps got evicted in Egypt.

But not considered as equals, can we talk about today? Why have millions of Christians and Jews fled Muslim lands the last 30 years? Because they're treated so well. Muslims always complain about the Palestinian right of return, where is the Jewish and Christians right of return to their ancestral homelands they've been evicted from?

Islam. Actually, in much of Islam the state is the church. Radical Islam in particular is as much an expansionary fascist political system as it is a religion.

Not really, the Arab 'nation' is a great, although very screwed up and violent, entity.

 

As do Muslims in Israel, in no majority Islamic state are they more free.

 

Well, Jesus did start out sure that the Jews would flock to him like bees to nectar. Once they started trying to kill him he saw the error in his thinking and tried to gain some new converts but it was too late. Even most of his buddies didn't show up to see him get nailed to the cross.

 

There was also times during the real Revolution where Muslims and Copts in Egypt protected each other from Mubarak's goons. That's all fallen apart now.

The Coptic leaders supported the coup against Morsi and the Sisi regime. Just before the churches got attacked, what happened? The army killed over 600 people. So yeah, there was obvious anger. Unfortunately they took it out on Copts churches. But was it because they were Christians? Or because Tawadros supported the Sisi coup? Religious, or politics? Or both?

http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=31315
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=31246&ref=search.php
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=30820&ref=search.php
http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2010/...of-churches-al-azhar-condemns-baghdad-attack/
http://www.ansa.it/ansamed/en/news/...har-condemn-attack-Coptic-Church_9493616.html

Ever hear of progressive taxation? It's sort of the same thing, with a religious twist. This was the method of taxation in the Muslim empires.

Jizyah in past empires was something like... 4 dirhams a month or something. Can't remember exact number, but it wasn't very much. Zakat was fixed at 2.5% of total earnings. It's not meant to be a burden for non-Muslims. And Jizya is progressive in that it is dependent on how rich a person is: Rich pays 48 dirhams a year, middle class 24 dirhams, lower class 12 dirhams.

http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/in...osed-of-the-conquered-kuffar&catid=320:jizyah

http://justzakat.org.uk/about-zakat/frequently-asked-questions-about-zakat/

See above. And yes, it was protection money. Non-Muslims who paid it had full protection in the state and it exempted them from serving in the military. That's why only men were fit for military duty paid it. Elderly, women, children, and the crippled did not.

You can add millions of Muslims to that list as well. And wonder why? Look at the countries... either they have Western-backed dictators, invaded by America, or infested with al-Qaida.

And who says they don't have a right to return? Their home is their home. It was 'Israel' which pressured - and even used false flag operations - to convince Arab Jews to leave their lands. The only ones "kicked out" where supporters of Zionism - and this was AFTER the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians occurred.

So... You think the sectarian divide in the Muslim word is... caused by Islam?

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did. 6:159

O ye messengers! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness: for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.
And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).
23:51-52

Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah,-
Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!30:31-32​

And Islam is the reason Muslims kill each other?

O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!4:29

Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah: for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.4:92-93

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.5:32​

Need I go on?

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Great, and blessed even... but screwed up?

Because that totally makes sense.

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See my post to Paul7 for more info on Jizya and Zakat.

Can I ask where you heard this?

 

Yes, I'm saying the issue is with Islam itself, at the time of 9/11 there were something like 26 armed conflicts going on in the world, 24 of which involved Muslims. Muslims commit an average of 5 terror attacks a day worldwide, many in places far from Israel. Unlike Christianity, Islam has no concept of loving your enemies, the Golden Rule, or turning the other cheek, which is why Muslim sects are still killing each other for offenses centuries ago. 'Allah' has no love for 'infidels'.

 

There has, as far as I'm aware, been no violence at the games; but there was suspected possible violence, all the stories coming from people with political motivation for having stories of that nature.

Perhaps you could find the numbers of wars and attacks started by the Good old U.S. of arse and compare that with the numbers attacked by Muslims.
Perhaps you would like to start with CIA bombings of Christian civilians in Indonesia, then go on to explain the carpet bombing of civilians in Vietnam and Cambodia. Actually, I don't recall the U.S. of Arse actually going to war with Cambodia, just mass murdering its civilian population.
Of course there are extremist Muslims and, being frank here, I would love them to either die quickly or. better, renounce violence and take up charity work.
Sadly, that won't happen because that lot are bloody idiots who think they serve the Almighty by killing innocent people.
Happily, the mainly Muslim government of Indonesia has a tendency to shoot such people.

What is nice in Islam?
Most of it.
The bad side is usually the bombs and they're the product of a mindless tiny minority and FGM.
That isn't even a Muslim thing but a cultural one, also common with some Jewish and Christian groups but not in most Muslim communities.
Of course, the anti Muslim hate brigade try to hide little facts in favour of blind hate.

 

You quote dot com websites by Muslim apologists.

I was asking for actual historians who agree jizya was less than zakat.

Wikipedia provides several sources showing that jizya was several times higher than zakat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

 

So do you approve of Sharia Law and its gender apartheid for woman and killing of gays and 'apostates'?

 

While I can't ignore the history of violence, I can say that I've not personally known a violent or militant muslim. And I've lived in a muslim country, under sharia. The vast majority of muslims I've encountered have been dignified, gracious, gentle and self-respecting. They have treated me exceptionally well, and I was never made to feel like a 'dirty western whore', as I have been in some other places which shall remain nameless, and which were not muslim.

On the other hand, I've also lived in a non-muslim country in which, if a boy and girl were caught together (not even doing anything, they could just be talking) alone, village elders forced them to marry immediately. So it's a tricky thing to point only at muslims. I believe these things are far more cultural than religious, and my experiences back this up.

 

lol oh dear.... So Muslims are Muslim apologists now? I take it you didn't even both reading either website then...

The first link explains how much Jizya was.
The second link explains how much Zakat is.

But yes, because they were Islamic sources, they were obviously apologist sources.... Sigh...

Yusuf claims there was no amount permanently fixed for the tax, though the payment usually depended on wealth: the Kitab al-Kharaj of Abu Yusuf sets the amounts at 48 dirhams for the richest (e.g. moneychangers), 24 for those of moderate wealth, and 12 for craftsmen and manual laborers.[12][53]

Which, evidently, is what was said in the link I provided. Hm.... Guess Wikipedia is a Muslim apologist source now?

No, it doesn't. It says Jizya AND Kharaj are higher than Zakat.

Kharaj isn't Jizya, and Jizya isn't Kharaj.

From what I've gathered on Kharaj, it was a land tax to non-Muslims and recent converts. But separate from Jizya...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/316354/kharaj

So the tax is with regards to the land, not the owner. Even if the person owning the land converts to Islam, the land is still considered Kharaj.

http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/in...and-change&catid=319:ushr-a-khiraj-land-taxes

http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/in...-of-khiraj&catid=319:ushr-a-khiraj-land-taxes

http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/in...aj-imposed&catid=319:ushr-a-khiraj-land-taxes

Another tax, similar to Zakat but for land, is 'Ushr. Paid for by Muslims.

I really would recommend looking at some legitimate Islamic sources for more information on this besides Wikipedia. I'm far from an expert on Islamic jurisprudence.

 

No such thing as turning the other cheek in Islam...

2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2:192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.​

No such thing as loving your enemies in Islam...

60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.​

No Golden Rule in Islam...
“The most righteous person is the one who consents for other people what he consents for himself, and who dislikes for them what he dislikes for himself.”
- Prophet Muhammad SAW

But I like how you ignored my entire post

 

Is there any difference between sharia and Moses' commandments? A lot of Christians want to follow Moses' commandments even today. Some are always trying to get them posted all over town, especially in government buildings like courthouses.

 

One of the things I like about Islam is that it takes a principled stance against interest, or as some old school Christians know it as, usury. I admire the idea of people lending money without personal profit. It strikes me as a very moral thing to do.

 

Here's the quote:

Please read it for me to confirm that jizya, in practice, was higher than zakat.

Since you insist that zakat was higher than jizya, could you please quote an actual historian supporting your view?

My recommendation is to browse the historians *cited* on the Wikipedia page rather than trawl dot com missionary websites.

It's not as if I'm providing un-cited information.

 

No, neither do any of the other Muslims I know - and I know a lot.
In fact, there are two openly gay teachers at my school.
Both are popular with staff and children and no one gives a flying crud about their sexuality.
Four out of five of my barbers here were gay - all but one was popular and I really didn't care as long as I got a reasonable haircut.
I did stop going to one because he was chatting me up. That's because he wouldn't accept rejection and continued trying, not because I was offended - more pissed off at his attempts.

As for gender whatever, my wife is an equal partner in our marriage. We debate and decide, not order.

For leaving Islam - you can't force someone to believe but you can encourage them to examine their feelings.

 

For the most part, particularly where Jews are concerned, the history of religious minorities in countries where the majority are Muslims, is certainly more pleasant than the history of religious minorities where the majority are Christians. Scotland is thought to be the only country in Europe from which Jews have never been expelled. While Christians persecuted and slaughtered Jews throughout Europe, Muslims gave them refuge in the middle east. It wasn't until modern Zionism, when Muslim and Christian Arabs were dispossessed of land that had traditionally been Arab land, and it became clear that Zionist Jews immigrating from Europe wanted to build a Jewish state, that attitudes towards Jews in the middle east began to change.

In much the same way as the attitudes of Africans, Indians and Asians etc towards Europeans, changed, when European immigrants started taking over their countries.

The Quran says:

This teaches respect for people who reject Islam, whereas Christianity has traditionally been the ''convert or die'' religion.

Traditional Christian doctrine says that all non-Christians go to hell, while the Quran says:

There are no ''God-given'' rights for religious minorities in Christianity, and the rights of religious minorities in Christian countries throughout most of history, were whatever the Christian rulers decided they were.

Jews having a monopoly on usury in Christian countries, and the wealth that Jews amassed largely as a result of this, would conceivably have been cause for much resentment among Christians against Jews; whereas the complete ban on usury in Muslim countries would have prevented this from occurring. Jewish and Christian communities thrived throughout the Ottoman Empire; but of course being exempt from being called up for military service, would have meant that non-Muslims would have been more able to have uninterrupted careers.

Even though at various times in different countries in Europe, Jews had more rights than Christians, Jews were also taxed at higher rates and had no inheritance rights, with all of their wealth being confiscated by the Christian monarchs when they died.

While in Christian countries serfs were considered to be the property of nobles, and Jews the property of monarchs, there was no such widespread feudalism in the Muslim dominated middle east.

The early Islamic conquests generally replaced oppressive regimes, with less oppressive (by today's standard) regimes, and civilians were protected rather than slaughtered. For example the Muslim conquest of Jerusalem resulted in Jews being able to practice their religion more freely, while the Christian Crusaders subsequently killed all of the ''infidels,'' Muslims and Jews alike.

Most Muslims in the middle east probably couldn't care less what we do in the west; all they ask is that we don't interfere in the middle east. Yet not only do we keep attacking countries in the middle east, propping up oppressive regimes and supporting jihadis, but the British and French created the very countries that still exist today. Lines were drawn on the map where they didn't exist before, dividing communities and lumping different communities together, the results of which are still blatantly apparent today.

And even at that, the drawing of the lines on the map in Europe resulted in considerably more violence than it has done in the middle east. We started that off all by ourselves, without any outside interference, not to mention the death and destruction that we wrought throughout the rest of the world.

The trouble in Russia is much the same. It is Russia that is trying to dominate other countries that have majority Muslim populations, not countries with majority Muslim populations that are trying to dominate Russia. Any attacks at the Olympics will be a consequence of that, so the motivation can clearly be blamed on Russian aggression.

Perhaps if America had been colonised by Muslims, more natives would be alive today.

 

Your cherry-picked probably out of context quotes aside, why aren't Muslims doing this. Do you not know what's going on in Iraq, for instance? Muslims killed up to 150,000 other Muslims in Algeria for instance, out of a population of 25,000,000. In 2008 alone, there were 2,204 separate documented incidents of Islamically motivated violence which led to death. In total there were 10,779 deaths and another 18,213 critically injured. That is more people killed each and every year in the name of Islam, than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. More than 29 people are killed in religiously motivated attacks every single day at the hands of Muslims.

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News flash for you, there are already six depictions of Moses the lawgiver on the US Supreme Court building.

 

What are you talking about? Where did Jesus force anyone to do anything? He harmed nobody, unlike the 'prophet', who recently made the cover of Military History Quarterly. Today, Muslims are forcing people in many places to choose between converting or dying. Christianity has more voluntary conversions than all the other religions combined.

 

I've already provided plenty of info on how much Jizya was, and how much Zakat is. These aren't missionary websites. It's easy to just dismiss everything on these websites as "missionary" or "apologist" websites, however they say the same thing as your Wikipedia page.

For example... http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/in...osed-of-the-conquered-kuffar&catid=320:jizyah

The Hadith for this is mentioned on Wikipedia's Jizya page. Hadith is authentic sources which a lot of Islamic history is derived. This Hadith in that article - like on the Wikipedia page - says how much Jizya was during Umar's (RA) reign as Caliph.

As for Zakat... http://www.al-islam.org/forty-ahadi...h-number-22-apparent-and-hidden-aspects-zakat

The Hedaya text can be found easily, as a PDF, for free, with a simple Google search. If you like, read it yourself.

For now, I will stick with Hadith on what Jizya should be, not "some evidence suggests" without any examples from Wikipedia.

If you'd like to provide more evidences for your argument, please don't hesitate.

 

See, that's why I link to every verse of the Holy Quran I post on this forum.

Click the link, and from the page click "See More Context". I have nothing to hide

And it's funny... I provide you with what the Quran says, and you provide me.... actions by Muslims from 6 years ago? Without any references... Probably form TRoP lol. And out of those alleged 2, 204 "Islamically motivated" violences, how many of the victims were targeted were Muslims? Even today, how many of these "Jihadists" are killing Muslims? And I'm to believe this is what Islam permits?

Anyway, you can dismiss everything I say. I'm not even posting for you anymore. I'm posting for others who happen to read this thread. They can read my posts, and then yours, and come to conclusions themselves.

 

Do you think this year is any different?

So read the daily paper, there's more every day.

I don't know who they are, but why don't you drop the ad hominems and address the crimes being done in the name of Islam every day by your brethren? Can you name me one majority Muslim nation that has freedom of religion as we have it in the West?

I already said that, Muslims kill each other all the time.

Can't tell you, I can only tell you what Islam does.

Agreed.

That was dumb, Sharia Law is completely antithetical to Western human rights.

 

Islamists are fierce and zealous in their beliefs. They are not phased by political correctness.

 

Wait a minute... something looks different. Hey! Where's my bit about the verses I posted? Are we leaving out parts of my posts now?

Where did your numbers come from? Was I correct when I said TRoP? lol.

Read the daily paper in the US. What do you see? Somebody shot. Somebody stabbed. Somebody murdered. Is it because that's what the United States constitution says to do? Is that was it means to be American? Of course not. They're breaking the law. Same applies to Muslims. Quran forbids killing innocent people. Even harming trees during war is forbidden in Islam. The Muslims who kill innocent people are criminals, breaking Islamic law, and under properly established Sharia - not from these corrupt "leaders" today - they would likely be killed for what they do.

What ad hominems?

Lebanon. Jordan. Syria.

But since you want to bring up the righteous West, let's take a look.... How many governments has the righteous West overthrown in the Middle East, and how many brutal dictators has the righteous West supported? How many democratically elected leaders has the righteous West overthrown, only to replace with a puppet dictator? Everybody loves to mention the Saudi regime. Well guess what, it's the righteous West who supports this regime. Who provides the regime with weapons. Who buys the regimes oil. Same with Qatar and UAE and all those gulf states. It's also the righteous West who established the Taliban in Afghanistan. It was also the righteous West who is funding and arming al-Qaida in Syria, like they did in Libya. It's also the righteous West who has killed millions of people in Iraq and Afghanistan because of what al-Qaida did. It's also the righteous West who is threatening Iran with military action for it's nuclear power program. It's also the righteous West who supports the Zionist regime as it oppresses millions of people - Muslims and Christians - in Palestine. The righteous West supports the Sisi regime - who is also supported by the Saudi regime. And of course, there was the Mubarak regime, who, yep, was supported by the righteous West.

Where's love your enemy? Where's turn the other cheek? Where's the Golden Rule from the righteous West?

So Mashallah, you have freedom of religion. Maybe the righteous West should teach this to the dictators and puppets it supports in the Middle East.

*****
I saw Dusty posted this Surah from the Holy Quran, and you replied to the post but, like with mine, seem to have missed it, so I will post it again.

109:1 Say : O ye that reject Faith!
109:2 I worship not that which ye worship,
109:3 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109:4 And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
109:5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109:6 To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Does that sound like freedom of religion to you, or is this entire Surah taken out of context...
*****

And I already addressed this.

Then maybe... I don't know... learn? And you haven't told me anything that Islam does.

If you've never read the Quran, what makes you think you know what Sharia is? If it's by looking at the Middle East, I'll let you know already, this isn't Sharia. This is Islamic law with a twist. Everybody has a different Sharia. That's the problem. The Sharia in Iran is different than the Sharia in 'Saudi' Arabia.

If you want to see what Sharia really is, look at the Prophet Muhammad SAW. Look at the four Caliphates - the caliphates of Abu Bakr (RA), Umar (RA), Uthman (RA), and Ali (RA) and the Caliphs after them.