Carnage on Gaza border as Palestinians shot dead by Israeli

What "12 year seige of Gaza"?
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/n.../looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/#.Wwtp60gvw2w

 

Your article does not impress me. I can supply a couple of articles stating Bill Clinton is from outer space. A little life history for you. Not everything you read is true. When you see claims like this you need to examine the evidence. A short time ago Russia threatened to knock down any missile the US fired into Syria, then destroy all the Naval vessels firing the missiles. Then they ran like hell. All the missiles hit target, no ships were sunk and Russia again showed they have no way to deal with high tech weapons. You can drink all the Kool Aid you want but I have been to Russia. They are stuck in 1950. Nearly everyone in the country is an uneducated drunk. They take little pride in their work and have no incentive to improve. There is not a more corrupt or dishonest political system in the world. They put on a huge façade and tell you how great they are. When you go there you are assigned a "guide". This guide will not allow you to go to the real Russia. No matter where you go, he will use the same route and you will see nice wide streets and impressive buildings. However, the people will admit it is all a big front, they don't live like that. If you are naïve enough you will believe they have all kinds of super weapons. I do not.

 

Foreign Jews weren't allowed to stay more than 30 days, not local native Jews. Travel visas avant la lettre.

I never claimed it was mostly Jewish. I said it was mostly Ottoman. Take your red herring to another pool. I hate fish.

Change in demographics in a certain area in a certain period is not proof of ongoing ethnic cleansing. Not every movement of populations is ethnic cleansing.

You claim there's an ongoing ethnic cleansing, you have to prove it. When, where, who, how, numbers. You know, names of places where ethnic cleansing is taking place, the number of people affected, how is the ethnic cleansing done, where are those people now, if alive, testimonies of witnesses. Facts on the ground.

 

This is more nonsense indicating that as always you simply respond to American and Israeli propaganda and have never bothered to find out anything about the real situation. Wiki leaks proved that Abbas, wrongly, was willing to offer even the kitchen sink but to no avail. In Oslo the Palestinians recognised Israel on 78% of their ancient homeland - to try and suggest Palestine is the homeland of anyone else than the Palestinians is to suggest that because the Bible says Jews had a state there 2,000 years ago for a few years, the area of the world called Palestine must always be run by the Jewish religion or to be more honest a supposed Jewish 'race'. Hence people who are European have the right, 2,000 years later to colonise that area, ethnic cleansing the indigenous people whose genetics suggest have a stronger link to the ancient Jews than any of the distinct branches of Judaism. Not only that, the original Jewish Colonialists were only Jews if you view Jews as a 'race' - that is had a recent ancestor who was Jewish. The vast majority were non practising Jews - people who prior to Hitler, no prior to Zionism would no longer have been considered Jews.

So the indigenous people, those whose land it was, whose ancestors had worked the fields and built the buildings, having been beaten by the killing, the ethnic cleansing and the world class army which these Colonialists now had, agreed that they could have 78% of their ancient homeland. All they asked in return was the remaining 22% of their homeland presented as a contiguous viable state. No if's or buts about it. There were no concessions on this. They had already made the concession of giving the interlopers 78% of their ancient homeland. Israel has never offered anything near what she agreed to at Oslo.

Because you dehumanise the Palestinians either from Christian, Imperialist or racist viewpoint you see no reason why they should not have agreements made to them fulfilled, illustrating that some American's still have the same psychology as they had when they were engaging in their genocide of the indigenous people of the US - as we see again and again from this Imperialist country and many of her people, treaties are only to be broken.

The American Christian Right and their desire for Rapture believing they are fulfilling God's will is the reason why the Palestinians are being treated inhumanely and agreements being thrown in the bucket. Without this support the Israelis would have been forced to act with honour and abide by their agreement at Oslo. This began when US politicians decided to show the Palestinians they were not in favour of Oslo by passing a law to move their embassy there in 1995 - ten days before Rabin was assassinated - whether there was direct complicity in that with the Christian Right in the US, I do not know. The Christian Right is in no way just 'born again', nor are all 'born again' the Christian Right - think Carter. The Christian Right also includes Catholics. You refuse to look at anything. You have such a bigoted hatred of the Palestinians that you classify them all as terrorists and agree with the massacring of them. You refuse to investigate anything which would shine light on your false views and continue muttering the same hatred regardless of what information is given to you. There must be some reason for that. If it is not religious then possibly it is just racism but you have shown no rational excuse for your hatred which appears to be of a genocidal nature.

Oh I did illustrate why your suggestion that the only reason a person could be critical of Israel was because they hate Jews was a non starter but clearly yet again you ignore to try and excuse your desire for genocide against the Palestinians as being something that only a Jew hater would not agree with. Let me put this simply. Not all Jews support the actions of Israel. To accuse all Jews of the actions of Israel is antisemitism. People who do not support genocide do not support it regardless of who it is against. They do not believe genocide is acceptable against one people but not against another. However for people who want to support their hatred by demonising a specific group, in the past Jews now Palestinians/Muslims, the group is important. It is the dehumanising and support of mass killing that is the problem.

You support genocide because you do not like who the Palestinians voted for in a democratic election. This of course is regular American Imperialist thinking. Countries have a democratic election. The US does not like who they chose. The US arranges a coup or in some other way destroys the country until they have put in who they want. Of course in the US there are also people who fight strongly against your imperialist thinking but I am guessing you do not believe in democracy at all - which is true of a great many right wing neo con/Christian Right Americans.

They most certainly are victims. Their country has been colonised and they have been ethnically cleansed from it. For 50 years they have been kept prisoner as Israel takes more of their land and their resources supported by the United States of America. The Palestinians made an agreement in Oslo and engaged in 20 years of talks while Israel with US backing took more and more of their land and resources. They are killed all the time but do American's speak about these killings, not a bit of it. One Israeli killed though in response and the Americans are up for another massacre of the Palestinians. The Americans totally support Israel bringing a world class army into a civilian area, mass killing civilians and destroying all infrastructure and when Israel run out of bombs to attack civilians with, the US asks them how many more do you want. The Americans go on about the indigenous people being terrorists and never for one moment speak of the reality that Israel is a terrorist state born of Terrorism. You have double standards. It is not that you do not like terrorism. It is simply that the only people you want dead are Palestinians.

Yes you have in this thread. You have supported the massacring of unarmed Palestinians

You know perfectly well that there are only two things they can do to make you believe they have sorted out the situation. One is mass suicide. Are you aware that only last week a man in Gaza set himself on fire. You can give that a good clap. The other is giving every bit of their homeland to the Israelis. The Palestinians tried for 20 years to get Israel to honour Oslo. During this time the PA repressed the West Bank and during that time neo zionists took more and more of their land, burned their crops and their homes and their babies, took their resources in particular water so that they can have 5 baths a day but the Palestinians have to gather rain water on their roof and are unable to water their fields - which Israel uses as an excuse to take more land and made them line up at checkpoints if they wish to go to work or to visit a family member only a few miles away. Not in history since the genocide of the American Indians and the taking of their land have we seen such lack of interest in the law from the colonisers nor such brutality, and this is of course all supported by the United States of America, the Christian Right of whom were up in arms about the idea of a two state solution and have made sure it did not happen. You blame the Victims. Now when your forefathers were brutalising the Indians and Colonising the United State there was no law to stop you. Now there is and you are on the wrong side of that law no matter how big your mouth or how much the US can bribe people to do what it says.

 

I posted "evidence" that supports my claim ..

1) The article from the independent stating British Aircraft carriers have no ability to defend against hypersonic missiles Russian missiles
2) You were given which has US Air force General Hyten commander of US strategic command testifying before congress. stating we have no defense ..
3) you were given articles talking about how Russia and India have been working together on anti ship missile Brahmos

You claim the evidence presented is false - fantasy - "Kool Aid" ,which is absurd nonsense, and then make up some kooky story about the Russians running like hell - supported by zero evidence.

Regardless - even if your story was not preposterous nonsense - it is a whole lot more difficult to hit a missile with a missile than to hit a ship with a missile.

Then you talk about going to Russia. So what - did they give you a private tour of their military facilities and give you access to top secret information showing that all their missile programs are fake.


What a joke .. go away.

 

Ottomans are Arab. And my source says that there were way more Arabs than Jews in Israel, the day before the Jews claimed Israel. And than it shows that 2 years after that day, 92% of the Arabs got ethnic cleansed.

92% of the Arab population vanished from Israel, during the small window of 2 years. That is proving ethnic cleansing.
The Israeli intelligence admits that Jews are mostly guilty of ethnic cleansing Arabs.
I dunno how on earth you can still deny history these days.

 

Seriously?

Well...an honest dialogue just became impossible.

 

You sure get your panties in a wad when someone don't drink your Kool Aid. You sure have a lot of faith in your article from someone who has no way of knowing what anyone's military really has. He makes his living writing crap that people like you lap up. Do you really think the Russians or anyone else is going to let some yahoo know what they really have? Clue here, they put out what they want him to print. I saw another article by such an individual the other day. He was talking about what a superb athlete Putin was. They said he scored 12 goals on the Russian Olympics Hockey team. He makes Bobby Orr look like a third grader. After his political career, I am sure he will make millions playing hockey. Dude, wise up Russia is the biggest propaganda machine that ever existed. You act like anti ship missiles are some new technology. Anti ship missiles have been around for half a century. That great military giant Argentina used one on the British in the Falkland Islands. Get a clue dude. Most of the Russian bomber are prop jobs. Not exactly are high tech country.

Are you ignorant enough to think British or American Generals are going to actually tell what their military capabilities are? If you were paying attention during the Gulf War, the generals said they would not be able to mount an offensive for six months then crushed Iraq like ants three days later. Misinformation is what every military uses.

 

You are the one drinking the Kool Aid - some rah rah sis boom bah Hollywood movie such that any evidence - from the real world - that conflicts with your fantasy beliefs sends you into a tizzy of denial and demonization.

I did not give one Russian source and you blather on about Russian propaganda as if I had.

Lame

 

Pisa: you are quite correct. It's a point I try to make whenever I get into a discussion about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, or any other national conflict: there are always conflicting currents of opinion among any people, and, more importantly, these can change over time -- and these changes can be influenced by what the other side, and others, do.

So what I mean is: what do the Greater Israel Zionists -- their leaders --... the ones who support more and more settlements ... which seems to include the current government of Israel ... think will become of the millions of Palestinians who surround them? Presumably they're not responding to some mindless reflex to settle, but have a strategic plan, and one that is congruent with the whole purpose of Israel, to provide a safe haven for Jews in a world that proved, 80 years ago, that it was indifferent to their fate. So what is it? What do they think will become of the Palestinians? Do they expect to live forever surrounded by a sea of people who hate them? (Which would seem to me the exact opposite of the original Zionist vision, which was to get away from being surrounded by such people.)

 

Why would Palestinians want to live in a country they hate, among the people they can't stand?

They'll leave Judea and Samaria and swim home, across Jordan river, to Hashemite Palestinian Kingdom of Jordan.

 

What a bunch of propaganda. Yadayadayada. Let me guess---- you are Palestinian. That's the only plausible explanation for your very angry diatribe. Do you feel better now? Being so angry isn't healthy. You should chill sometimes.I would say that YOU are the HATER-----not me. I don't think about the Palestinians, but that seems to be all you write about.You seem to want all Jews killed and you hate Christians and probably want all of them dead too. Muslims did join with Hitler to murder Jews, you know, and look where it got them. The victims are the JEWS, and they aren't going anywhere. (PS Catholics are not the Christian right. )

 

I'll start with your last question: the successful ongoing integration of Israeli Arabs in the Israeli society proves that coexistence with people who hate us is likely to bring fundamental changes in these people's attitude toward Israelis. Supposing, of course, that each and every Palestinian Arab hates us, which I do not believe. I think "mistrust" is a better term.

The settlements occupy around 1% of the disputed land, so the heated arguments about Zionists settlers stealing Palestinians' lands are really just a big fat red herring swimming around a big fat strawman. Settlements built illegally on Palestinian private land had been dismantled following Supreme Court rulings. The situation isn't anywhere near as bad on the ground as the so-called pro-Palestinians claim.

Some of the current government coalition members see the whole of the West Bank and Gaza as Jewish territories, which is not a logical approach to a very thorny problem, even though these territories should have belonged to Israel according to that precious international law our enemies like so much to twist and bend against us. What these extremists overlook is the simple fact that, despite Israel being the Jewish state, there are other ethnic groups living here, so everything Israel is and does is not purely Jewish. I'd sympathize with their views - not totally agree, but still - if they claimed the disputed territories for Israel, but claiming them for Jews only makes me feel quite uncomfortable. Ethnic and other minorities shouldn't be made to feel tolerated, which is exactly what these far right politicians have in mind. This is enough for me to reject their ideology.

No sane politician would say today that Arabs should be transferred or expelled, but I suspect at least some of the more extremist politicians are seriously thinking about it. Their attempts to weaken the justice system and undermine its independence are proof of a worrying dictatorial mindset. I'm not talking about the entirety of our right wing, just some with extreme far right views.

There's a broad consensus here that Arabs in any annexed territory will automatically receive Israeli citizenship. This is the main reason that many here on the left, even the far left - are opposed to settlements and annexation of land: they don't want more Arab citizens. I find the outspoken racism of the far right easier to deal with than the soft, muffled racism of the left, nicely wrapped in human rights language.

 

I also can source from the Jewish virtual library that prior to the Jews ethnic cleansing the Palestinians, the Palestinians had a clear and massive majority in present day Israel.

 

My bad. The pronoun 'they' referred to the Israeli settlers, who are the ones who are surrounded. I asked, or meant to, why would the settlers want to live forever, surrounded by people (the Palestinians) who hate them. Your answer is that the Palestinians will leave.

I suppose that's possible, and it's the only rational hope for the ultra-Zionists. But I doubt it's going to happen. It's just wishful thinking. So what's Plan B?

 

Pisa: thank you for your thoughtful reply. It matches my own perception of Israeli society, and my hope that the current ultra-Zionist government will eventually be displaced by more realistic people.
A Jewish-majority state, with a 20% Arab minority, could work. It does work. Israel is probably one of the best nations in the world, in which to be a minority -- if you have citizenship.
However, I still have the question: what is the aim of the people who support unlimited settlement of the Occupied Territories? Dutch thinks the Palestinians will eventually leave. It's nice to see such optimism in the world, but ... that seems to me as likely as that the Jewish Israelis will leave Israel. You're evidently not a Greater Israel ultra-Zionist, so you can only speculate about the plans of those who are, but I'd be interested in what you think that they think.

I do have one disagreement with you: I don't think that people who don't want to become a minority, or almost-a-minority, in a 50-50 binational state, are necessarily racists, muffled or otherwise. It's true that there is a lot of hypocrisy around on the race question, certainly on the Left, but I'd say the Israeli Left were just being realistic, and making a rational projection of what would likely become of the Jews, if they were a minority in a Palestianian state. (Note you can be racist, not left wing, but also optimistically unrealistic about your future: witness the whites who remained in Zimbabwe, and still remain in South Africa.)

Perhaps the fate of the Jews who remained in Germany after 1933 have made unreasonable politically-correct optimism less fashionable among their descendants. And it's why I remain puzzled by the ultra-Zionist desire to physically, if not citizenship-wise, incorporate several million Palestinians into the borders of the place that was supposed to be a safe haven for the Jews. It seems insanely optimistic.

 

For the Israelis and Palestinians to talk, without UN, without USA.

 

I'm not sure how our religious ultra-nationalists view future relations with Arabs in a Greater Israel, but I'm certain they don't have some evil schemes involving endless suffering. Religious Jews, even the more extreme, generally respect practicing Muslims - maybe because Rambam viewed Islam favorably as pure monotheism, and as far as I know Rambam is widely recognized as supreme authority. Maybe what the Greater Israel fans have in mind is some sort of voluntary transfer, involving compensations, of at least a part of the Arab population, like they tried to do with the illegal migrants. While huge migrations of populations, leading to or following establishment of new countries, took place frequently throughout history, even as recently as the middle of the twentieth century, I doubt that any Arab country would be willing to receive the Palestinian Arabs, and I doubt the Palestinian Arabs themselves would be willing to leave, seeing how Israeli Arab's lives are so much better than Arabs' lives in Arab countries.

I don't have a problem with people who don't want to become a minority. I have a huge problem with people hiding their true colors under the righteous mask of concern for human rights.

Judea and Samaria - collectively known today as West Bank - are places of enormous historical, spiritual and religious significance. Kind of like Mecca and Medina for Muslims. It's hard to let go. Besides, people who think God is on their side tend to act somewhat insanely once in a while...

 

Pisa: thanks again for the again thoughtful reply. Now all we have to do is to hope that ten million or so Jewish Israelis and Muslim Palestinians adopt approximately your viewpoint and ... we'll have peace.

I have a suggestion: 'face' is a big factor among everyone, not just the Orientals.

I think the Israeli government should openly acknowledge that something terrible happened to the Palestinians in 1948, and that the immediate cause was the people fleeing something far more terrible that had happened to them, ie the refugees from Nazi extermination (with the gleeful co operation, or the quiet toleration, but seldom the opposition, of much of the non-German population, even among the people conquered by the Germans). And, as you say, this was just one, and not at all the most bloody, of several forced mass population transfers after the war. So the Israeli state should acknowledge this, apologize to the people it displaced, and offer compensation. It should recognize that there are two rights in conflict -- the right of the Palestinians to live in their own land, and the right of the Jews to live somewhere, the Nazis and their collaborators having effectively closed off that right in Europe. (And while it may seem far-fetched today, the idea that the Jews need a safe haven, in case the Nazi collective insanity, in some form, grips the world again, is not utterly crazy. It's the Jewish form of what in America is called 'survivalism'.)

So that's what I would do if I were the Israeli state. And I'd make the compensation offer very generous: specifically for the property lost, and also a general compensation for the Palestinians as a whole: the offer of scholarships for Palestinian young people, building schools, roads, homes, hospitals in a new Palestinian state.

I wouldn't make it a condition that the Palestinians have to officially renounce the idea of Greater Palestine, or the ultra-Zionists,Greater Israel, so long as they were willing to leave its achievement to future generations, who will be living in a very different context. (A peaceful Europe, with a near-pacifist Germany, would have seemed mad a hundred years ago.)

The bill would be high, but the advanced countries of the world -- certainly the US, and probably Europe as well -- would have a strong motivation to contribute -- a middle-East 'Marshall Plan', would have wide ramfications ... it would transform the Iranian problem, for example, were there to be an Israel/Palestine concord widely accepted among the Palestinians, and so ought to have the support of the wealthy Arab states.

But for such acceptance to happen, the Palestinians need a moral victory -- Israel's recognition of the crime committed against them -- and serious material inducements, that cannot be stolen by PA bureaucrats or appropriated by Hamas.

Announcing such a plan would give the Palestinians hope. Right now, anyone among the Palestinians who doesn't support, or at least tolerate, the hard liners looks like someone who just wants to surrender.

In short: we acknowledge we did this to you, pushed you out of your homeland, while noting we were being pushed in turn, fleeing from our ancestral homes which were piled with six million corpses. We apologize, and want to make amends.

I think this would be the right thing to do, and it would also be the smart thing to do, especially now, when Israel holds all the military cards, but is losing the sort of public support it used to have among the rest of the world.

 

Meanwhile the alt right alt Jews in alt Israel sniped another 'un. "Hamas terrorist" masquerading as a medic, I suppose. Funny how they go after young women, these alt right types.

 

And I thought it would be a phot of another young woman "honor" murdered by her father and brother for dating some guy they didn't like.

 

one Jew dies and it's a mini-Holocaust. 200 Arabs are murdered and it's their fault. This is the brainwashed western white culture.

 

she's really pretty young lady 21. Now a decaying corpse thanks to the Jewhadis. They can murder anyone for entertainment and deserve the retaliation.

I have seen rumors that Hamas will now be targeting zios worldwide with assasinations. I won't oppose such actions.

 

That looks more like what someone else has trained you to think.

 

What makes me think that you would never have opposed such actions, including in 1942-45?