Christians; defend apocalyptic literature

On the contrary, you need to look outside the Bible to know what it is really saying.

Jesus calls himself the 'Good Shepherd' who looks after his sheep. Psalm 23. Ezekiel 34. Jesus is the Shepherd of Israel. He always spoke to his own people. In one case the disciples ask him why he speaks in Parables, and he tells the 'because you know them'. Many of his parables relate to the OT - not to Christianity. He claimed he had come to his own (Jews) and also that he would lay down his life for his own. (Jews). Of course Christianity gets round that by saying that Jesus referred to all. In fact, we really do not know what Jesus actually said. Most written secondhand, and decades after his death. That Jesus existed I accept. But there is no genuine proof that he was anything than a Jewish poacher.

Christianity used the mythical story of Daniel for its own purposes and the events of the Maccabean period and an apocalyptic passage when it fits in well with local history of the time. .

You can't interpret anything without the knowledge of when and why it was written. The Jews will tell you that. After all the OT was written by and for the Jews.

 

Thanks, Trevor.

 

Oh here are the words of the Apostle Paul formerly Saul of Tarsus. who was the Jews Jew he was the star Pupil of the greatest teacher of the Jews.



3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.




well you see the new testament is the fulfillment of the old testament the old testament cannot be accurately interpreted without an understanding of the new.
The work together as one body.

 

Paul simply adapted the OT to fit his own ministry to the Greeks. Much of his ministry and sayings are found in earlier Greek philosophy. - with which Paul was familiar. He used these terms to tie in his ministry to the Greeks. Christianity started with Pauls adaptation. The Gospels weren't written till after his own letters were distributed. All Paul had was the OT and what the disciples told him. And they didn't agree with each other.

There's nothing in the OT that has anything to do with Christ. Jesus preached Judaism which was contaminated decades later with Christian thinking. Jesus died in 28CE. It was decades before the gospels were written by unknown people. Did they have a stenographer on the mount when Jesus supposedly gave the Sermon. But this is written verbatim in Matthews Gospel 6-7 decades by someone who had never met Jesus. Even then the Beatitudes come from the OT
Jesus used the OT because he was talking to the Jews who, he considered, had wandered from Yahweh. Where did he ever talk to the Gentiles - voluntarily.
Paul considered Jesus divine because of his supposed resurrection. The writer of Matthew makes Jesus divine through his miraculous birth. Both have no proof. 'Matthew' and 'Luke's' versions lead to contradictions and upheaval in the Roman world that we have no record of - and was actually impossible. Believe what you will. Study would show you the impossibility of 'events' in the Bible.

 

Because pastors and priests assert that they know what it means from the pulpit. They are lying to my mother and the rest of the old ladies in the pews. Also because Daniel and Revelation as I've said on multiple occasions have produced date setter wackos the likes of William Miller and Charles Taze Russel. They put fear in people and trick them out of their money! I'm here to challenge bad ideas.

You have to be religious to know religion? You're seriously going to question the intelligence of the non-religious in processing information on how religions work? Why not go be a Satanist for a few months then so you understand Satanism? Or is that a call for protective ignorance?

 

Yes there are charlatans i am sorry your mother got caught up in that garbage.

Understanding God does not take intelligence, it takes faith in Jesus.

 

My mother is not under any influence of any charlatan, but she is in fact caught up in unhealthy ideas like the idea that I'm going to hell. My former church is pretty mainstream. My point of pastors reading it from the pulpit is that I assert absolutely NOBODY can understand Revelation. Not even pastors. I mean can you even begin to tell me what creatures with six wings and covered in eyes means?!

And because the Bible produces charlatans, why does Yahweh intend it so? I'm not talking about misfortune, I'm talking about being thrown into confusion over teachings.

As for faith in Jesus, you do realize people have different ideas about Jesus and not necessarily the Jesus of the Bible right?

 

People are going to hell. The healthiest thing a person can do is come to grips with the idea that apart from faith in Christ hell is the only alternative.

You are welcome to believe whatever you wish. But the bible says what it says.

 

Perhaps you are going to hell for committing the "unforgivable sin" = speaking for God (putting words in God's mouth".

You don't know that "faith in Christ" is the only alternative to hell - That's not what Jesus says. You are usurping the position of Jesus and spewing out nonsense in his name.

Jesus had a few choice words for the likes of you - Matt 7


“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash

You are like the bad seed .. professing falsehoods in the name of Jesus.

 

" I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to thr Father except through me."


Jesus said, Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”


Peter said, There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Paul said. I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.”


Jesus taught he was the only way to avoid hell, The apostles Peter and Paul both taught the same.

You can believe whatever you like but salvation exclusively by faith in Jesus is what the bible teaches.

 

As I stated - Jesus never states that "Only" faith in Christ will save one from hell.

If you knew the NT - you would have some understanding of your first quote from John. Jesus does state that at the end of days he will be the one doing the Judging of who gets in and who does not - Matt 25 - Sheep and Goats parable.

Jesus does the separating on the basis of works in this passage- not on "faith in Christ". In other places - such as the passage quoted to you previously - Jesus says that salvation can be obtained on the basis of works - doing the will of the Father.

So not only have you put words in the mouth of Jesus - the words you put in his mouth contradict the teachings of Jesus. How is this not under the definition of a false prophet ?

"They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves" This fits your behavior to a tee !

You come in sounding all high and mighty - making defacto claims about who Jesus is going to let into heaven and who will not - but the reality is that what you are preaching contradicts the teachings of Jesus.

Posting stuff from Paul and the book of Peter - neither being the words of Jesus - does not change this fact that you are contradicting the words of Jesus. Peter was not written by the Apostle - btw.

We don't know that Peter taught the "faith alone" doctrine - you are making stuff up. James - states that those who believe in this doctrine are foolish so I highly doubt that Peter would have taught such a doctrine.

Paul never knew Jesus and made up stuff as he went along.

You then close with a falsehood ... The teachings of Jesus are part of the Bible - and what you are saying contradicts the teachings of Jesus.

Then there is the obvious fact that the majority of Christianity does not believe "faith alone" dogma. So are all those Catholics, Orthodox and even some Protestant sects - doomed to hell ?

According to you they are. Who are you to make that determination ? - that is the job of Jesus not you. You are putting words in his mouth and contradicting his teachings.

You can believe what ever you like with respect to salvation but - when you go out there and start making defacto claims to others with respect to Jesus - now you are stepping over the line - the "unforgivable sin" line.

To me this is "playing with fire" - literally - but hey - when standing at the pearly gates - and the Judge says - "why did you put words in my mouth" ? - you won't be able to say you were not warned.

 

I believe what I am saying is faithful to the whole bible says.

 

Its not what the whole Bible Says - nor being faithful to what the whole Bible says - hence why the majority of Christianity does not accept "faith alone".

I have quoted a number of places where Jesus contradicts your claim directly - in clear and concise language.

Why you do you keep on posting Pauline Gibberish - in a conversation about the Teachings of Jesus ? Paul does not tell is anything about the life of Jesus or his teachings 1) because he did not know Jesus and 2) because he did not know many of the teachings ... It is not like Mark had been written when Paul was writing.

Regardless - I have already granted that Paul contradicts Jesus ... so stop wasting your and my time going on about what Paul said.

Its not my opinion that 1 Peter was not written by the apostle - That is the opinion of Biblical Scholarship. The dating of 1 Peter is 80-120 AD ..long after Peter had been crucified upside down. 1 Peter is also thought to have Pauline influence which is also not consistent with Peter.

Regardless .. it matters not as I happily grant that 1 Peter contradicts the teachings of Jesus.

I am not the one in raging denial of scripture - You are.

You post some stuff from John - at least this is teachings of Jesus - but what is this ? John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

This is exactly what I stated to you earlier - this passage lends zero support to your "faith alone" claim.

The Apostles did not accept Paul's teaching with respect to "faith alone" - they did not even associate with Paul sans a few brief encounters and he was not part of the Church of Jerusalem - James 2 is a direct rebuke of "Faith alone". He calls this doctrine foolish - and no amount of mind boggling gibberish will change that . Luther - the fellow who introduced "faith alone" doctrine to Christianity was so disturbed by James 2 that he wanted it removed from Canon.


You can desperately grasp at these silly straws all you like - that will not change the fact that you are in denial of the teachings of Jesus.

I do not do this - I agree that one could interpret some of the sayings in Jesus in John could be interpreted as meaning that faith is a possible path to heaven. "The only path to heaven is far more debatable" given they are short sayings - and not an entire sermon where the message is specifically how to get into heaven. The Qumran and Ebionite communities believed that if on was part of the community one was alive - if one was not one was dead... so there are various nuances in language to consider when looking at short passages like the ones you posted.

Regardless - it doesn't matter - I am not the one sitting here in denial that these passage exist. You on the other hand are in complete denial of the passages that contradict "Faith Alone" - You like the Jesus depicted by John and Paul .. you don't like the Jesus depicted by Mark - Matt - so much so that you are in complete denial that this Jesus even exists.

You then finish with the claim that attributing the deeds of Jesus to Satan is the unforgivable sin This is an interesting take but - the idea that attributing the teachings of Satan to Jesus is not the same is silliness - and this is what you are doing.

 

I don't know what cult you belong to but they do a good job of indoctrination.

 

Nice Projection Robert "Projection is a psychological defense mechanism in which individuals attribute characteristics they find unacceptable in themselves to another person" Help for that problem can be found here - https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/projection

Now to your other issue - You have been denying the teachings of Jesus that conflict with dogma. I have not done this ... Jesus says what he says.

This "thought avoidance" is a classic symptom of Cult Mind Control This subconscious response is to due to the fear that questioning cult dogma will result in you going to hell - so I get it. Nevertheless - something is definitely causing you to engage in "thought stopping".

 

That's funny there, my views are very mainstream protestant.

 

I'm curious. You seem to have a lot to prove about what Jesus said and did. What do you personally believe about Jesus specifically?

For Christians the Jesus concept is the most obvious: the Jesus found in the Four Gospels of the New Testament. Jesus to them is the promised Messiah (aka The Savior for what he did on the cross), the son of God as well as God himself. Depending on whether a Christian is trinitarian or not the Christian of whatever persuasion will believe all of the above or just some of it.

Atheists fall under two categories:

A. Jesus never existed.

B. Jesus existed, but the character we are presented with was constructed by Paul and Peter. Jesus was a spiritual leader, but we know nothing of how he truly lived except that he was a religious martyr.

I fall under the latter category (though I do admire the Jesus of the Urantia Book).

Some free thinkers say it is irrelevant who Jesus was and view him more as an abstract concept of the ideal the same way Buddhists view God as an abstract concept.

Muslims say he was a prophet born of a virgin and avoided crucifixion by switching with a look alike. Nothing else is really known about the Muslim Jesus.

Jews say Jesus was a false Messiah and Christians are a heretical Jewish sect the same way many Christians see Mormons as heretics.

Other religions have completely different ideas too numerous to list of who Jesus was. So with all these Jesus concepts, which Jesus do you claim?

 

It is not your views that are at issue - even Catholics and Orthodox have a faith component their salvation formulation. Its your extremist perspective - the audacity to claim that your perspective is the only one - and that those who do not agree will go to hell.

This is classic black vs white - good vs evil - God vs Devil paradigm .. such an an extremist perspective - is typical of those that have been indoctrinated in a particular way. I was raised Protestant - in a very religious home - with close relatives who are members of the cloth - and they don't talk like this - and we have had this exact discussion.

The other ringer is your complete denial of some of the teachings of Jesus - those that do not conform to your perspective - as if life on this planet is going to end if you were to question your dogma in anyway. Your complete avoidance of these passages - thought avoidance tactics is very typical of the more extremist groups within Protestantism.

And lets not forget the "when all else fails - demonize the messenger" tactic - even though it is not my message but, the message of Jesus. This is warped.

I don't know man - you tell me what is the cause of this pathological avoidance ?

 

I'm not avoiding anything. I have explained everything.

I do not deny anything Jesus said. I deny your interpretation of them.

 

People like you actively drive people away from the lord. Make them hostile to it even.

How do you believe your god will look upon you once he says “you have not brought people to me but instead have drove them away”?

 

Interesting question. The topic is something I have studied in a fair bit of detail ... outside of the normal protestant (Lutheran) religious upbringing. I started questioning certain tenets of Lutheran Doctrine/Dogma at a fairly young age .. after having read the book and noticing some contradictions.

So what do I now believe ? I believe Jesus was a real person - whether or not he was "inspired" - I view that as a possibility. I don't accept the modern Trinity Doctrine - a doctrine codified by Emperor Constantine for Political purposes. The disciples did not believe that Jesus was God "the Father", nor did the early Church fathers - most of whom were subordinatists - believed that Jesus was subordinate to the father .. not "co -equal". Jesus did not seem to think this either - as evidenced his always referring to "the father" as someone other than himself.

It is rather difficult to reconcile the idea that Jesus was God - which the last words of Jesus on the Cross "My God, My God why have you forsaken me". Did God - in some kind of masochistic delirium - forget who he was ?

Unfortunately we do not know much about the real Jesus - Mark is most of what we have - and the author was not a disciple - although was reputed to have been the student/interpreter of Peter. The author of Matt uses all of Mark - leaving out a only a few passages that he finds derogatory toward Christ and the disciples ( otherwise known as artistic license - Pious Fraud). Such artistic license was the norm back in the day .. and this complicates things.

In Mark Jesus is deified as a man of 30 - in keeping with various traditions and rituals of other religions. There is no virgin birth - no lineage back to David - and most importantly - no physical resurrection - stories of Jesus appearing in the flesh after death - the "smoking gun" for the resurrection. Paul likens appearances of Jesus after death to his vision - so Paul doesn't know anything about this Physical Resurrection either. Clement - writing around 95-100 AD (as leader of the Church at the time) doesn't know about the Physical Resurrection either.

Matt is dated 80-100 AD - so either it was not yet written, It was written but Clement had not read it, or It was written but he early version did not contain these resurrection stories. Either way - the divinity of Jesus is evolving.

By the time we get to John 90-120 AD - Pauline Christianity has taken over. The character of John and Luke is distinctly anti Jew. This was cultural as much as it was a desire to be distinct from Judaism. After the Jews revolted they were personal non grata. There was a harsh tax levied - just for being Jewish - called the "fiscus Judaicus".

The author writes a very different gospel that is a Pauline Hellenistic Fusion. He has adopted the Logos concept to describe the divinity of Jesus "emissary between man and God" - in an effort to make Christianity more appealing to the masses by using terminology that everyone was familiar with.

In John Jesus evolves further - rather than being divine at birth - Jesus is now pre incarnate. This author also engages in considerable artistic license. He changes the last words of Jesus on the Cross from "my god my god why have you forsaken me" to "it is finished".

So where does this leave us. The original Church of the Disciples - Church of Jerusalem - disappeared a few decades after the death of Jesus. The Pauline version took over - a fellow that shows almost no knowledge of the life of Jesus - and he was also unaware of many of the teachings of Jesus. This is not surprising as Mark was not written until after the death of Jesus .. and was likely based mostly on oral history - with perhaps a few writings from various places.

We would probably know much more but, as soon as the Church got power around 325 AD - it set about burning history - anything which conflicted in any way with the new doctrine .. including the vast library of Origen - which was what Eusebius used to create the Bible.

Now we have discovered numerous other writings/gospels - thanks to these being buried and forgotten about - so they escaped the big bonfire. This helps but we know very little about the Gnostics - other than they were certainly early Christians.

From my perspective the teachings of Jesus can be summed up in his most famous sermon - Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7 (also found in Mark of course) and if you want an even shorter summary.

Matt 7:12 - The Golden Rule - "12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

Jesus restates this rule a number of times in different ways - Judge not lest you be Judged, Take log out of own eye before picking speck out of your brothers eye, Love neighbor as self, Let ye who is without sin cast the first rock - and so on.

 

You are in complete denial. Jesus is not talking in riddles in the sermon on the mount. The interpretation is crystal clear.

You have failed to even address the statements by Jesus - nor do you suggest an alternate interpretation. All you do is post from other places in the Bible - which avoids addressing the passages in question.

For example - When Jesus says that "Only those that do the will of the Father will get into heaven" - what is he referring to - if not what he has stated as the will of the Father in the Sermon has just given.

It is preposterous mind bending avoidance to claim that although Jesus has just spent a whole sermon outlining the "will of the Father" - that in his summary when he refers to "The will of the Father" - he doesn't mean what he has just stated as "the will of the Father".

 

The will of the Father that Jesus was referring to was to believe! Believing is where all the goid works come from.


"Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness "

Abraham knew that God would do what He promised even if he sacrificed his son.

 

Mainstream? Nope. Only about 150 years ago.. and still not accepted by mainstream Protestants.

 

That is not what Jesus says.. the whole sermon is about good works. Not once in this sermon does Jesus say that believing in him is the will of the Father. In numerous places however Jesus talks about works as being the will of the father. Following the Golden Rule being of primary importance. Love neighbor as self - help the poor.

You are making up gibberish that has zero support in the sermon that Jesus gives - and your claim that Jesus does not talk about works as being the will of the Father is a patent falsehood.

Judge not - lest you be Judged - how is this not the will of the Father.
Don't murder - how is this not the will of the Father

Then - right after stating "only those that do the will of the Father" He says that is not the hearing of the word but the doing of the word that is how one does the will of the Father.

Your in denial land - and have zero support for your claim in the Sermon that Jesus gives - A Sermon in which the major theme is how to get into heaven - a sermon that is about works, works, and more works.