I have successfully lobbied the site owners to remove damn from the dirty word filter, and thought I might foster a discussion about what damnation means to you. What do curses mean to you? Why was damn considered a curse? Who is capable of invoking curses? Atheist, religious, we all have something in our minds as to what damnation is, or what it SHOULD be as a matter of fantasy. I am curious about peoples visions of hell. I have previously stated that I think my version of hell is the self. Trapped in the mind of the self with no sensory input, utterly alone... without the ability to stop being or influence/be influenced by anything...
I'm a universalist Christian, meaning that I don't believe in eternal hell but in Christ's ability to bring all of us home to the father, who is endlessly forgiving. Accordingly I'm not a fan of damning people. If anything, damning other people casts more of a bad light on the soul of the condemner than on the soul of the condemned. We are called to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, who forgave those who crucified him.
I used damn once during a frivolous comment and was shocked to find it censored. I don't used it in anger and don't allow my kids to say it and rarely say it at all unless for some reason it helps express something but its not what I would call profanity. But can be disrespectful for those who respect God and can be used as disrespect to God HImself. I think damnation-- in the most basic description---is a place completely without God. All good in any person, place or thing comes from God. An enviroment without God would be a completely horrendous place.
This was part of the rationalization for removing the word damn. It appears to me, that the only entity capable of effecting damnation was the Judge of Judges... curses by men on men only ever brought ruin on the one doing the cursing. I felt it was offensive to Christians to censor it on the basis that it is "obscene". A copy of my submission is here http://www.politicalforum.com/debat...ve-atheists-do-hereby-affirmative-submit.html So if hell is temporary... and life eternal... where do you fall on the punishment of those who commit the most egregious horrors? I mean... even 1000 years goes into infinity a whole lot of times... same with 1,000,000,000... Who is your ethereal self? There must be a state of change in order for punishment to have the desired effect. Clearly you wouldn't come out of a lake of fire (for example) after 50 years of suffering being the same as you went in... this is part of the reason I like my hell... as a concept of course. If being in God's presence is bliss... its binary opposite would be absent any sign of Him, which perhaps our need to socialize is based in from a theological standpoint... to bask in the amazement of others, and ourselves for His handiwork in us. To be close to man is to be closer to God... including the self. Just a romanticized thought probably... but still... it is my best guess... if I were wrong about the whole thing that is.
I am curious about this lack of eternity in damnation. Does this mean to you that Satan and all of the demons will eventually gain access to heaven?
First and foremost, thank you for getting them to kick the censorship. I'll just speak from the heart and tell you what my personal damnation would be and what I kind of think it is. It would be to live my life without hope,without the possibility of a better place and ultimately death, then a reboot back into the same world,maybe through reincarnation or whatever. I would be stuck in some damn nation forever.. LOL ..
Unfortunately for those that don't like my postings, I am here to add my two cents into this interesting thread. BTW: I also approve of the removal of the censorship on the use of the word 'damn' or 'damnation'; it should also be removed for other words that are used in the Bible. By censoring any word used in the Bible the administration is essentially censoring the Bible. Anyway. As defined in the Strongs Concordance and dictionary: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2917&t=KJV "1) a decree, judgments 2) judgment a) condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others b) in a forensic sense 1) the sentence of a judge 2) the punishment with which one is sentenced 3) condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence 3) a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court" As can be seen from the definition, unless one possesses the title of Sovereign or Judge, then the attempted use of a 'curse' or 'decree' of damnation is essentially an empty gesture. Without the availability of some form of force to execute such a decree, it is meaningless. A judge has the executive branch of government which includes the law-enforcement agencies; the Sovereign has the force of the military; the private man or woman do not have such force available unless they take the law into their own hands and usurp that authority of either the judge or the sovereign... ultimately causing said usurper to be guilty of yet another crime...impersonating an officer of the law. (which law is the question).
I agree also being a 'Gracist.' who believes in the total restoration of Creation as pointed to in the last chapter of Rev...aka the Garden with the Tree of Life in the center issuing Living Waters (a ref to Jesus Christ). Damnation as I have read in scripture is 'eternal separation from God." Only the Devil and his 'demons,' plus the False Prophet & the Antichrist' might qualify for that position. But if one believes in the 'total' restoration of Creation, and that God 'uses' such as Satan et al to accomplish His purpose (Good needs an alternative Evil for 'free will' to work), then I dont count out the ALL being restored..but again,. this is my personal opinion based on both the love of God and His grace.. '
I totally agree with your definition of sin/hell. Yes, sin/hell is to be separated from God/to be self-centred with no compassion for our fellow-men. As for eternal hell/damnation and why I dont believe in it: this is an English-speaking text that explains it a bit: http://www.christianuniversalist.org/articles/salvationconspiracy.html In short: the idea of an eternal hell is mainly due to a mistranslation of and a rather earthly wish to exert control via fear. What I do believe is that therell be a painful point for each of us when well fully realize the gravity of our sins, but in the end well be forgiven/our sins will be washed away, because - as shown in Christ - as a loving father God seeks reconciliation. As for Satan and demons: I think they are basically a personification of evil. Once we realized where we succumbed to evil and let it go, evil will be no more. So no, while formerly evil people will be in heaven, evil itself wont be. There won't be any need for it.
Well done OP, I never understood the censorship of the word damn either. Lucky for me there either is no heaven or hell... in which I will be worm food after death, or the Christians are right and I will go to hell... a preferable scenario to spending eternity surrounded by a bunch of intolerant and judgmental Christians.
Great topic. I think all "curse words" are bunk. They aren't inherently bad, but it's one of those things people just get conditioned into believing in. (*)(*)(*)(*) (*)(*)(*)(*) damn. As if the sound of any such "bad" word will actually cause anyone of any age any harm at all.
From that link: Much later in the Christian story, when some claimed that Hell was a place for everlasting punishment, Universalists countered with their conviction that God was too good to condemn anyone to Eternal Hell! --- Is he talking about the same god who was reportedly so fantastically good as to flood the earth to kill all land life and later destroy a couple of cities with fire and brimstone for being full of people who didn't measure up to his set moral standards?
Durandal, I have to say I like reading that kind of posting from you. It shows that you are one of those people who believe that old adage "sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me". That is commendable.... Just remember that when someone places a verbal curse upon you or your family.... then you can lean on the words of that old adage.
I see you’re still in the habit of reading the Bible like the most naive of fundamentalists, which – as I’m sorry to say - is a rather dumb approach for a person who likes to think of himself as reasonable. While He is believed to be unchanging our ideas about God certainly are, and so it’s not surprising that bronce age ideas of Him can come across as rather archaic. Should you ever get around to actually study the scriptures you criticize here, you’ll find that our ideas of God evolved throughout the Bible, not least via the help of the teachings of Christ. It’s those teachings that bring up the idea of salvation in the first place. That’s why the message of Christ is called “εύαγγέλιον” (good news).
Oh, religions certainly do evolve, and I view new testament ideas as an evolution of old testament ideas + possibly other ideas brought in from Egypt/Persia, much like Mormonism built on the older foundation of old + new testament ideas, and also like how Christianity split into numerous very different sects and remains pretty heavily divided today. One thing about universalism, though - it's a brand of Christianity that can't be concerned with trying to convert people, since everyone is supposed to be saved regardless. It's still all bible-based bunk, but at least it's a bit more pleasing to human sensibilities The different varieties of Christianity also go to show that each person will eventually find the variety of faith that best suits them personally. Different innate ways of thinking -> different theology. There is nothing supernatural in this, of course. It's just people pursuing happiness through religion.
So you finally got some general principles? Fine. Dont worry, Im not even going to try to drag you into a deep theological discussion about progressive revelation or articles of faith such as Novum Testamentum in Vetere latet, et in Novo Vetus patet (The Old Testament lies hidden in the Old, and the Old becomes clear in the New - Augustine) Because you are right: not regarding your soul to be in danger of eternal condemnation, Im not that desperate to convert you. According to my beliefs Ill have plenty of time to nag you about having been right about this whole God-issue once we both sit on our metaphorical cloud. That doesnt mean I dont feel obliged to tell people about the Good News and the joy and inspiration Christ can already give you in this life. Id be rather selfish if I didnt share these news. Also my belief in universalism doesnt mean that I think that I can sin as much as I like, it means that I try to obey God out of love and trust rather than out of fear. The question is: why are you so eager to convert religious people to atheism rather than leaving them to their own pursuit of happiness?
Want in one hand and poop in the other and see which one gets filled first. That is precisely what you need to do ,,, keep on wanting,,, because as I see it, there are very few Christians that are gullible.
