Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

Humans do want revenge when they are wronged.

The larger issue on earth is the wellbeing of the civilization as a whole. So, we have limited incarceration, statutes of limitation, etc.

And again, the idea that God would poll those injured to determine whether someone goes to hell is not a feature of Christianity - or Judaism or Islam.

 

It was about the desire for knowledge and to be like God. And it was no accident that Eve chose the Apple. That's why i never buy Apple products. No good can come from it.

 

That's not a judgement issued by god, though. It's a human giving another human more time to find and follow the "correct" religion.

I think you're still just muddying the waters of what is spelled out clearly in the tenets of Christianity.

 

This has nothing to do with "correct" religion.

The point is that the judgement by God will be based, in some situations, in part, on whether the one you have wronged forgives you.

That's why the righteous are entitled to justice; hence the existence of punishment in the afterlife.
In a way, I suppose one could say it is part of heaven. (Or your punishment may be part of someone else's heaven, rather)

 

And why can't God have what humans have? You certainly seem to approve of what humans have, and some of those prisons can be pretty awful, sort of almost veritable versions of hell.

A thread you may be interested in reading about that here: Prisoners killed by guards in Florida prisons

 

I haven't seen anything like that in the NT.

The judgement being discussed is whether one goes to heaven or to eternal torture. There are passages that suggest that good behavior on earth will earn more reward in heaven.

BUT, one can't escape hell through good behavior. Only one's individual relationship with god counts. Are you saved? Are you NOT saved? And, you know what it means to be saved. No opinion from any other human matters at all.

As for "correct religion" I'm just pointing out that Christianity believes one must find Christianity - not any of the millions of other religions. For example, Christianity believes Gandhi is being tortured in hell for eternity - he didn't find the "correct religion".

 

Humans have absolutely nothing that a god could possibly want.

Also, Christianity says hell is a permanent state of torture for eternity. There is no term limit, no parole, etc.

 

Off-topic, you seem to have completely misunderstood what I meant.

I meant the systems and laws in place humans have.

 

Not all. There do exist different interpretations. Some Christians believe hell will not go on forever, and eventually (immediately after the final judgement) they will be thrown into "the lake of fire", which would be the spiritual equivalent of execution.

While there are other Christians who believe real hell has not actually started yet, and all the damned are currently in some form of Purgatory, awaiting the final judgement.

 

OK, then clarify. I'm not trying to misunderstand you.

 

Ahh - Catholic purgatory? I know some believe it could be possible to convince through prayer to move some soul from purgatory to heaven.

Still, whether someone arrives in purgatory or in hell when they die is God's decision. Catholics believe that one must have an adequate personal relationship with God in order to achieve purgatory rather than immediately headed for hell. My understanding is that to be in purgatory one must be redeemed, but not sufficiently pure for actually being in heaven. And, I'm more focusing on eternal torture.

Do you think someone could pray to god to move a soul from purgatory to hell?

 

I'm not sure if that is true.

If we were discussing some more mild and passive form of "torture" that only went on for a thousand years (i.e. Purgatory), would that be irrelevant to you in this thread?

 

Good points. There is a lot of variety.

Still, it seems impossible to me that a human being could change a god's view on whether a soul desrves heaven. Humans are purely sinful creatures. We don't actually know what is/was in the "heart" of another soul. We don't know god's higher purpose. We can't know what god motivated someone to do.

God knows EVERYTHING we know (and will know in the future), plus he knows EVERYTHING the soul knew when it was on earth. How can one argue that god needs more information, and from a human at that??

In the OT, Joshua slaughtered every man, woman, child and animal in Jericho in order to take their land and demonstrate to other cities what would happen if they didn't surrender to Joshua all that he asked (terrorism). Surely that's one of the more heinous crimes documented in the Bible, an event that surely drove witnesses away. Yet we are told god saw it as good! There are other Biblical cases of god working through man where the result is death and destruction. We can't know why these events were seen as good. We know they benefitted certain people on earth - which can hardly be considered a higher purpose for humanity. We know that god cut off all those victims from having a chance to worship him - and we must assume they certainly won't be in heaven.

Surely we must decide that if such a god does exist, his methods and purpose for humanity is not well known by humans.

 

One could argue that since God sees everything, maybe he sees something that we don't.

Hence, a theological policy that might look unjust to us, might be revealed as just in the afterlife.

 

Certainly not irrelevant to Catholicism, but I think we were focusing on hell - eternal torture.

The idea of a waypoint in addition to human life doesn't really change anything about hell, I think.

 

We have already discussed this sort of issue in other threads.
No reason to bring it up here again.

(Short answer is the people living there were obviously very evil, burned their own babies as sacrifices, as just one example, and God gave those societies 400 years to change their ways, while the Isrealites were held in slavery in Egypt and wondering in the desert, and they still didn't change)

 

Absolutely. Humans will always have imperfect knowoledge of other humans and the bible points out that humans don't have understanding of god's purpose or methods.

 

I don't see that answer as good enough.

First of all, it assumes we can divine what god is thinking, what is plan is. We can look at the Jericho case and say, "Well, it certainly turned out good for the Jews, so maybe there really is a god who likes the Jews." However, that's a microscopic view. It ignores any larger plan, etc. And, history is rife with the winners saying bad things about the losers in order to justify their conquests. Maybe those inside Jericho were resorting to canibalism in order to survive the seige.

How was the Biblical god presented to these people during the time Jews were nowhere near there?

Why would the god of the Jews present himself only to Jews?

Also, today we see atrocities committed by those of pretty much every faith. Which were god directed and which were not? Did the Israelites assume god was in favor of slaughtering those in Jericho simply because they were so successful? What were the other signs? Did the Israelites then work to lead those in the land toward worship of their god?

 

It is a VIOLATION of PF RULES to EDIT the posts of other members!

It is also a VIOLATION of PF Rules to engage in FLAMEBAITING and TAUNTING!

Since you do not appear to be capable of engaging in Civil Discourse you have effectively DISQUALIFIED YOURSELF from any further meaningful interaction on this topic as far as I am concerned.

Have a nice day!

 

That actually PROVES my point about all children being born atheists!

Theists make the fallacious allegation that everyone is born "knowing god" which has zero evidence to support it.

Children raised WITHOUT religious INDOCTRINATION have no concept of any deity.

In your scenario above when the concept was raised the children were open to the POSSIBILITY just as they would have been open to the POSSIBILITY of people living on other planets in the universe.

That is because children are eager to LEARN about new things.

That eagerness to learn has nothing to do with the existence of an imaginary deity. Instead it is just the natural human attribute of curiosity about the world around them. You can see that same curiosity in the young of other species too.

I am not in the least bit surprised that they came across rational and intelligent because they had not been told that they MUST believe things that do no exist. They were also NOT indoctrinated with inane notions like being "born sinners" either. They were learning right and wrong from their parents in a sane and rational manner and responding accordingly.

Those of us who have raised our children as atheists have observed this in our own families.

 

Note that we only have heavily EDITED VERSIONS of whatever Jesus MIGHT have said assuming that he wasn't the 1st Century equivalent of Harry Potter.

 

Oh, the IRONY given that theists are the ones who are only deceiving themselves ITR!

 

While ignoring that the bible says that god decides with his hardening of hearts, or not, who will believe or not.

Why does god harden hearts against his own wish to be believed to be god?

In 2 Corinthians 3;14 - 15 God hardens Jewish hearts against their believing in Jesus as their messiah.

John 12;39-40 says about the same. The same applies to Romans 11;25, 2 Corinthians 4;3-4,

It seems Billy G does not know his bible.

Regards
DL

 

Which of the what, 3,000 or so denominations are real Christians?

Regards
DL

 

True.

Jews see Original Virtue and a success for us in Eden while Christians see a fall, all while singing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

This conflict shows that Christians do not know if the are coming or going.

Regards
DL