Do we owe Muslims another apology?

Do we owe Muslims another apology?


This link says yes.

http://bigthink.com/videos/maajid-nawaz-on-islamic-reform


This link says no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQcSvBsU-FM


To those who think we should try to separate the good Muslims from the bad Muslims.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drJCC2XXMBo


I do not think it is to the non-Muslim world to apologise to Muslims for the criticism we do of their un-civilized ideology.


Should we stop judging and criticizing those institutions of religion that are leading us away from a more civilized state?


1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.


Have you tested the ideology of Islam? Is it good to you?


Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.


Is correcting and criticizing Islam the loving or the hateful thing to do?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMJATBMebj8


Regards

DL

 

I find it strange to think of this in terms of "apologies". The link you say is in favour of apologising, I can't find any reference to apology at all. The second link is not available in my country.

Everyone who is involved in this debate is in one way or another interested in liberalising (in lack of a better word) Islam and people/groups/regions who follow it. The question is how this takes place most efficiently. Maybe I'm not super clued in with the debate, but I have a hard time remembering any media representing both sides of the debate fairly.

I tend to fall on the side that some call apologising (although, as mentioned, I'm sort of confused as to why it is characterised by "apology"). We know from years of diplomacy that just shouting one's own opinion in a holier-than-thou manner doesn't actually make people want to change. Especially when the debaters hold very different fundamental viewpoints, it becomes extremely easy to simply dismiss any argument as malicious or simply clueless. In order for someone to consider a proposition honestly and rationally, they must first be convinced that the person presenting the proposition isn't just out to trick them. At the moment, it is very difficult to convince the muslim world of this, and I can't see a way of doing it that doesn't start with being no less than fair with them.

That's not to say no criticism is possible, but our criticisms should be phrased in such a way that they understand that it isn't just a resentful ruse. I don't have a problem with criticising Islam as such, but a lot of the criticism I see seems more provocative than actually helpful.

Now, I would say my position is roughly between the two straw men extremes, but I have phrased it (and I think about it) in the wordings of one side rather than the other. I dismiss the "let's do nothing" position as a straw man, but in my take on the situation, I attack the "let's just blow them up" position as if it wasn't a straw man (even though I suggest that it is). This is because ultimately what matters is how the Muslim world reacts, and so far, it seems to me that the "let's just blow them up" position has propagated more vividly to the more dangerous areas and groups.

 

What is your idea or definition of 'civilized'?

 

The common denominator of the followers of any religion one cares to name is that their adherents, in one way or another, all have a screw loose.

 

So your advice on Muslims is based on Christian scripture? lolz!

Regards,
DB

 

I don't see it as one Muslim's fault when another Muslim does something bad any more than I take responsibility as a Christian when another Christian does something bad, which I don't at all.

I do see Muslim Orthodoxy as generally a negative influence (as I see Christian Orthodoxy to a FAR lesser extent), but I tend to presume that individual Muslims I encounter do not adhere to that Orthodoxy until they demonstrate otherwise (as I do for fellow Christians as well).

But then, Im both an optimist and an individualist.

 

They follow the Qur'ans vile instructions.

Regards
DL

 

One where apostates are not murdered and women are not officially denied equality with men as a good starting point. No?

Regards
DL

 

In the revealed supernaturally based religions, medical science agrees.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/



Humanity centered religions, good? Yes.

Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

 

Those where plagiarized from other older and wiser religions.

You stupidly attack the messenger and do not see the wisdom of the advice.

Regards
DL

 

All who fly the cross are Christian and all who fly the star and crescent are Muslims. All adherents all contribute financially and by association contribute to both the health and carnage that their religions do.

If they do not like the Swastika, then they should leave their tribes for more moral ones.

Regards
DL

 

That statement doesn't really resolve the issue I'm talking about. If you think that somehow tips the scales in the current debate, then you're arguing with only half of the facts.

 

How can any advice be taken seriously that is apparently uneducated?

 

If it is to you, then show an argument that refutes it.

Just railing and labelling it just shows that perhaps you are the one who lacks education.

Regards
DL

 

You were so busy calling things straw men that your point was lost.

Regards
DL

 

You have demonstrated your lack of knowledge by quoting the writings of one religion yet you are talking about another. Enough said.

Regards

DB

 

I did not think you had what it takes.
Thanks for confirming my thinking.

Regards
DL

 

What else does it take other than pointing out your folly?

Regards,
DB

 

We owe the world an indepth look at the religion, publicly. I am not speaking of Abduls version, or mamoods version, I am speaking of the documented version.

The Sirat Rasuall Allah
The History of Al Taburi.
Bukhari
Muslim.
And then Qur'an.

What we have now is people spouting their version who, in many cases know little about the religion itself.

 

Spare me the 'Jesus' crap please!

 

I dont contribute financially and guilt by association is not civilized.

Christianity is not my 'tribe'.

I cant speak for muslims, but I would bet lots that theres some who view islam as I do christianity.

 

I liked this because I have been thinking that the separation of church and state should be abolished so that the better secular law can be more redily infused into the vile and barbaric religions.

That would not only move religions to a better law than their Gods laws, it would also end some of the homophobia and misogyny that the mainstream religions preach.

If we are going to ask religions to reform, a reformation to secular law would be a good start in civilizing our vile mainstream religions.

Separation of church and state is a farce anyway so we might as well admit it and reform our immoral religions.

Can I have your thoughts on this?

I do not plan to derail this thread but am curious as to what you think.

Regards
DL

 

If that is all you picked up on, you show your poor moral sense.

Regards
DL

 

Sure. The minority, if you check the stats.

Regards
DL

 

The major problem with reforming Islam is the written documentation does not allow it, and to attempt it, is a death sentence. Religion was a main factor in the creation of countries, where a common one set the general rules for the society, be they good or bad, they were all the same. As time went on and these religion and societies started to overlap, and the trouble begins. Some religions do not work and play well with others.
Now as we exit the bronze age, and realize these religions aren't really what they claim to be, we go through an evolution to the next step, that is, some of us do.

In Islam, the religion is the government, and cannot be separated.