You must remind us all when this remarkable happening came to pass . It hasn't happened yet in this Universe . Pravda ranks in Russia in the same way as the Sun ranks in the UK . ( Incidentally I read Pravda , Novaya Gazeta , the Moscow Times and Kommersant in English versions all the time) Of course we all occasionally look at the comic end of the UK press but if you wish to read British Newspapers you choose between the Times , Telegraph , Guardian , Independent and Financial Times . Remember , we don't judge Americans on their addiction to Disney and Net Ball .You call it Basket Ball I believe .
Russia is actually one country I've always wanted to visit, particular St Petersburg, which just seems to be such a beautiful city. I certainly don't accept at face value the reports from certain sections of the UK press about Russia, although I also don't believe that there are no issues surrounding corruption of various kinds at high levels in government and business there - I don't think Russia has yet fully made the transition to a completely open and free democracy, but that's not a great surprise given it's history of autocratic rule from the Tsars to Communism. It was always going to be a process that would take a while, and there have long been noted by historians issues about the size, geography and demographics of the country as a whole that make it difficult to govern in some ways. That said, some among the British (and US) media may certainly not be giving a full or fuly fair account of Russian affairs, but news sources are what they are - it may well be that the Russian news media is not telling the full story about the UK, and in particular about how people generally feel about Russia. It is inevitable, of course, that what we see most on the news is where our countries have some kind of disagreement or problem with our relations, which will always tend to over emphasise those aspects - 'UK gets on well with Russia' is not really a very 'newsworthy' headline for a newspaper, either in the UK or Russia. It should be noted, though, that the kind of views about Russia expressed by others in this thread are not representative of the whole UK population! Most people I know also find Russia a fascinating country, and don't view it or its population as something the be 'feared' or 'disliked', or even 'pitied' anymore. People mostly do, as I do, have some reservations about some elements still operating within its government, some of the possible corruption, and the reported (bearing in mind not all reports may be entirely accurate, but not all may be entirely without foundation either) tendency to fall back instinctively on 'old ways' when things aren't going their way. That certainly shouldn't be misunderstood for a dislike of the country, though. From a personal point of view, being 40 now, I grew up in the days of 'cold war', where countries 'behind the iron certain' certain were generally viewed as 'dark places', following what could be described as the 'Churchillian attitude'. The news in those days was about the threat from the USSR, the threat of war, and so on. That attitiude has almost entirely gone now, certainly among younger generations, with the fall of communism and the re-entry of many of those former 'dark places' into the mainstream of Europe (and the EU, in some cases). Visiting former communist countries is now extremely common (although some of the visits by some groups of UK partiers are, I'm quite sure, not particularly welcomed by the locals, and understandably so - I can assure you that we're not all like that in the, though!), and many of us who haven't yet been would certainly love to - former communist Eastern Europe is no longer seen as a 'scary place', and the attitude to Russia itself is pretty similar. There are still some residual problems seen and experienced by such travellers (with some 'no-go' areas, some poverty, some corruption, and so on), of course, but no country is perfect! There are also, of course, many East Europeans now working in the UK. Having them come over in such numbers to work hasn't been universally popular, obviously, but in general the fact that they are around in society, mixing with the 'locals' and so on has again helped to 'normalize' relations between Eastern Europe and the UK at the general population level. That doesn't apply directly to Russians so much, but I have known several who have been over here working, and have never seen any animosity shown towards them by anyone here on the basis of their nationality. Russia is a country with a fine history of art, music and culture. It's made many contributions to the culture of the world in its history, even though many of those things tended to be overlooked in the last century in the west, for obvious reasons. It can't be pretended that there isn't a negative legacy left by communism (and its decline) in some ways (aside from some of the possible corruption issues, some of the 20th century architecture isn't exactly pretty, for a start!), but that doesn't mean it isn't every bit the equal of any other culture or nation, anywhere in the world. It is, and the sooner everyone in the world is able to deal with each other (including Russia) on that basis, the better things will be for the world. There are, of course, positive things that can be read about Russia - there are many books on the subject that aren't concentrating on news items that don't give a full and complete picture of the country and nation as it actually is. The same is true of the UK and its constituent nations, of course, from a Russian point of view.
Please feel free to review your previous posts......the only irrational and crude nationalism allowed...... is your own! One learns by one's mistakes and rectifies the reoccurring problems...not dress them up as nationalistic pride which normally in English aristocracy circles is to the detriment to another sovereign nation! ie Bombing the Libyans to protect them! Pure bloody hypocrisy...! Perhaps less of the nationalistic fervour and more attention to the genocide may help! Regards Highlander
In that case, I am assuming that you would be perfectly accepting of the same sort of "polemic" being directed at England by Hugilanim? Just curious.
I've always wanted to visit St. Petersburg as well, especially during the White Nights festival (the Scarlet Sails look amazing). I don't think there is really any question that Russia is an oligarchy, and that it does certainly lend itself to undesirable forms of government. The Russian character seems to posses a sort of resignation to misery and wretchedness, which hinders them from demanding more tolerable circumstances from their leaders. Like you, I think any transition to an open society in Russia will be long and onerous. The potential for a wealthy, successful nation is certainly there, if only the rulers would think of the country instead of themselves.
I've posted a number of times on my problem with vast state entities, and the inevitable remoteness of the government (and business 'elite') from the people, with reference to the EU and the USA. The same principle apples to Russia, in my opinion.
Polemics stand or fall by their context and their quality. There is no moral relativism applicable here. My post on Russia was a response to a particular thickheaded piece of crap. An equivalent attack on England would necessarily involve an unprovoked attack on Russia on another thread, with equivalent dire quality. You, of all people, should understand this. I was of course attacking Russian nationalism, not Russia. It is a particularly vile form of nationalism with a lot of blood on it's hands, not least centuries of anti Jewish pogroms.
There you go Plymouth. Quod Erat demonstrandum. This one's barely a grunt. Racist filth. Russian nationalists are generally neo Nazi scum. Why do you take offense on their behalf?
What else can I do if you are reacting like a retard on trolling attempts? You don't like a mirror of yourself? I am not bashing entire country when somebody tries to hurt my national feelings. You wasted half an hour to write a page of BS in attempt to hurt Russians. The only useful information I get over it is that Englishmen lost the remains of it's manners and education and populated with Neo-Nazi scum. Thank you for that.
You're being facetious, aren't you? Come on now, I know you are. "You carry on ranting from the mafia terrorized, cesspit of humanity that is Russia. Worship your effeminate prince who prances about on a horse flexing his muscles and fantasizing that he looks manly! I don't know what's funnier - Putin or the country of ********s who actually fall for him!" "Russia is a tragic vodka soaked land." "Russia - a nation of nearly two hundred million people that is distinguished only by it enormous irrelevance. If any person, from any nation, ever feels uncomfortable about his country, this can be resolved easily. Thank God you were not born a Russian!" Clearly Russia -- the country and its people -- are being attacked. My point is simply that if you are going to nip at the heels of people who engage in crude national insults vis-a-vis England, perhaps you should refrain from flinging equally base pejoratives at other countries. Surely hypocrisy is not such a difficult thing to avoid?
I'm afraid though your a tad sharp with your sentiments I agree with your submission. When one is filled with one's own petard ones is ignorant of one's bias or blindness! There is no point in any attempt to deviate Heroclitus chosen arrogance! Some know no better! Regards Highlander
Cenydd , I can appreciate what it takes and needs to wear the Moderator's Hat and to feel inclined to write attempted even -handed posts that seem measured and balanced . But bland , uniformed tripe is not particularly helpful or honest . You have never been there . Your words . I am not here to conduct some war against Russians . To the contrary , I have said elsewhere how I regard them at par with every ethnic group I have ever met -- save Somalians . But the country is in tatters -- go there and see with your own eyes , and it is run on the most concentrated vertical power model ever seen in History where the State Police and the government are one and the same thing . My God , even Putin's Judo coach sits on the board of Gazprom . That's like having Mickey Mouse on the board at Goldman Sachs . Literally .
NOT a Quote: Originally NOT Posted by raymondo Cenydd , I am here to conduct some war against Russians. And commit fat trolling. Moderator , He is taking your name in vain . He is inventing lies . He has shown himself to be Racist and ignorant in other Posts and threads . Has it got any value for this forum ? Moderator , please remove this Troll from the Forum . His contribution is zero .
I have given the original quote specifically for this case. So ya....another fail. You have just lose 10 minutes. But I respect you for self-criticism here. Delite raymondo. He is annoying trolling racist.
Most know that the phrase is "Hung with his own petard" which kind of explains why your post exploded in your face.
Cenydd, your big post on Russia was uncharacteristically waffly. I did notice that you thought so few good things about Russia that you had to write most of the post about Eastern Europe as if this was the same thing. Eastern Europe was a victim of a totalitarian ideology that mixed Leninism with Russian nationalism. I've seen what Russia did to Eastern Europe. There were countries that had been treated so badly by Russia that when they were invaded by a Nazi Germany that saw them as subhuman refuse, they still welcomed them as liberators. Eastern Europe is now emerging from darkness because it is turning it's back on a backward Russia that dragged them down for fifty years. Russia has some good writers. St Petersberg, built by an emperor dismayed by Russia's backwardness, is beautiful, and a rebuke to the rest of Russia. The charge against Russia that it is a backward place which had serfdom until the late nineteenth century, chose a socialism which plunged half the world into the darkness you describe, and now has a gangster style populist capitalism that sucks up natural resources but does little to develop society...this is the story of a failed nation. Any eulogizing of Russia - and yes it has fine writers - needs to take place against an acknowledgement of Russia's aversion to liberty, just as in my OP, my "patriotism" fully acknowledges the crimes of the English imperialists. Any crude nationalism deserves to be refuted polemically which of course involves saying some scathing things about the country.
Hitler invaded Europe between 1936 and 1940. So what European contry welcomed Nazi Germany as liberators -Austria, Checkoslovakia, Poland, Norvegia, Dania, France, Greece. Red Army wasn' t stationed on their territories at that time! As to other European countries like Spain, Italy, Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary they were all fascist countries that took part in the war against Soviet Union directly sending ther troops except for Bulgaria, to the front lines! So there were no Red Army units in those countries at that time as well! Stop talking rotten (*)(*)(*)(*)! Baltic countries had some Soviet garrisons that didn't poke their noses behind fences. If you say about 50 dragging you're either a fool or a provocator. Latvia as an example became the most efficient economy during the Soviet reign. It had a well developed rocket. missile, electronic, automobile, transport and communication economy! The level of life at that time was higher than hat of in Ireland! Now the go about Europe begging for handouts! There are no 1 industrial enerprises, nothing, no schools, no kindergardens, non socila well fare absolute zero! Only a few tycoons and empty villages as young, strong and healthy men and women run about Ireland and the UK to be empoyed as crap pots cleaners that as far as i understand suits you as British nationalist!
And don' t dare to say a word about atrocities! Otherwise I'll remember about 80000 Red Latvian Shotters that supported Lenin and Bolsheviks in Russia! 80000 latvians that went through the whole Russia as fire storm killing people all around! CK (cheka) who has hands in blood, the predessesor of the NKVD and KGB was conceived, organized and governed with Polakc and Latvians. May be you want to talk about hostiliries and atrociities unleashed in Russia, Ukraine and Bielorussia bi cheks, hungarians, romanians, polakcs? May be you want me to remember you that Stalin signed a Molotov Pact with Germany when there was nothing left out of these Europe excepr occupied Europena countries and NAZI satelites? May be you want me to remember you that ALL european countries signed Pacts with Hitle long before Stalin did the same? Poland had the same pact with Hitler as far as 1935 targeted against Soviet Union! Stalin proved to be more lucky and stronger than other to overcome Hitler. May be you think we forgot how you SOLD Chekoslovakia and how Poland broke Soviet French Chechoslovakian Lithuanian mutual military support Agreement? Wasn'it a REAL start of Second World War? So eulogizing Russia is correct and good. Suffice to remember that Gulag was a big but PRISON. The modern US has its own GULAG! And only subtle European mind coulr turn concentration camp into the real FACTORY OF DEATH where people were diassembles, robbed of garments, boots, jewellry, gased turned to a soap and burned! Such an 'advanced ' idea would have never even passed Stalins mind! By the way were't it British commmanders and politicians to invent the first concentration camps?
Heroclitus , Of course you are basically correct and our apologist above is in the grip of good old fashioned propaganda --- You should read his views about Russia's invasion of Georgia in a separate thread . Hilarious . You are absolutely right , Latvia was a hell hole until it got back it's independence . Now visiting Riga and the rest of the country is a pleasure and eye opener . The FSB started a new wave of intimidation this Autumn when it mounted subversive activities in the province of Latgale , and in fact the Latvian Security Police took criminal proceedings against arrested FSB operatives . Russia has been desperate to get its hands on any of the three Baltic States , post Putin , and most memorably carried out their Invasion of Georgia Cyber War rehearsal in Estonia in 2007 . This huge attack came close to paralysing Government and Military operations and whilst defeated with NATO assistance allowed Russia to test out its treats for Georgia the following year . Our FSB plants here will be most unhappy to have such information shown here but it is all in the public domain if you know where to look .
So? I was clear. Hitler was welcomed as a liberator into countries that had felt the barbaric brutality of Russian savagery. Latvia. Estonia, Finland, Lithuania and the Ukraine...treated so badly by Russian imperialism that they welcomed the Wehrmacht as liberators. And Hitler thought some of these peoples were untermenschen. But they still cheered because Russian rule was even worse. This was not the case when the Japanese invaded parts of the British Empire. I think you are trying to slander me with a dishonest straw man of my argument. These countries are irrelevant to my point. I didn't say ALL countries. You need to read more carefully. After WW2 Russia established puppet governments in client states and when they didnt cooperate, they sent in tanks, and murdered the flower of these countries youth. Scum! Hard to follow some of this. I spent a lot of time in the Baltic States after they were liberated. The level of poverty, the shocking state of industry, the lack of economic development... these countries were miles behind the West. You choose one of the most backward European countries when you choose Ireland thirty years ago. If these states are a "success" story then this is even more shaming of Soviet failure. You left a country where no manager could take a decision, where there had been no investment for years, where the level of technology was a hundred years out of date. The youth of these nations are rebuilding them. The wealth of these nations - by all economic measures - has gone from strength to strength. Your nation used to imprison other nations, stop them leaving their borders, lying to them about the world through your propaganda. I personally know many Eastern Europeans, (Poles, Germans, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Estonians, Magyars) and have never met a single one who supported communism or didn't hate Russia. Instead of history, Lithuanians had to learn "the history of the communist party of the Soviet Union", German managers on seeing Western technology in 1990 talked about "wasting their whole life". You ask Poles if they want to leave the EU and join with Russia again - if you can stand the derision. Russia is hated in Poland. Even the racist language. People from Poland are Poles, not "Polacks". Evidence of Baltic communists changes nothing. The killing machine that terrorized the world was organized in Moscow. I frequently talk about Barbarossa, the Einsatzgruppen and the Holocaust. I know that slavs were murdered in their millions. I also don't pretend Jews were not, as is customary in Russia where anti-Semitism is taken in with mothers milk. Yes, its good of you to remind us how the Russian nationalist hero Stalin, Koba the Dread, was a Nazi collaborator. I remember how Russia colluded with the Nazis to see the massacre of the Warsaw Resistance in 1945. Treacherous barbaric scum! Russia is in Europe and Georgia where Stalin came from is too. Yes, this was a crime of the British. I don't eulogize British murder as you do with Russian killing. Britain has episodes of shameful history, as I stated. It also has left positive legacies. Russian history, unfortunately has very little indeed to recommend it to the world. Any Russian would have more credibility if they started by denouncing the murderous thug Stalin, and the whole history of Bolshevism and the Soviet Union. Until they do they are to derided in the same way that neo Nazis are, as thugs who want to recreate death camps, silence their enemies by killing them and plinge their countries, and others, into darkness.
I suppose your orange by nature.........But I am neither ....I can look at both sides and come to a reasoned and logical conclusion! Being brought up in Aberdeen we had none of the central belt "bought" in bigotry! All Scots or incomers are under the auspices of Scots laws regardless country or creed they originate! Even England! But they moved up here to be treated fairly, something alien to those now residing on the other side of the border! Just be glad your Scots! And trust in the Scottish government to remove those wishing to avail themselves of institutionalised bigotry! Regards Highlander
