Europe To Send Conspiracy Theorists To ‘Reeducation Camps’

Discussion in 'Other/Miscellaneous' started by SamSkwamch, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. CausalityBreakdown

    CausalityBreakdown Banned at Members Request

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    My moral philosophy is sort of post-stirnirite. I acknowledge that there's no concrete moral authority and that all human beings make their decisions based on what personally benefits them, but the existence of empathy causes people to feel disgust at some deeds and be pleased by others, and that's close enough.
     
  2. Wehrwolfen

    Wehrwolfen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm sure Obama likes the idea and will try and impose this on the American people before he leaves. Surely if Hillary or Bernie are elected they too will try and force it upon America.
     
  3. JoakimFlorence

    JoakimFlorence Banned

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    Don't forget what Martin Niemöller said, a pastor in Germany who was imprisoned by the Nazis:
    "First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
    Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me."
     
  4. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    Needless to say, I don't see those as being examples of the people being at their smartest. on the contrary..
    Don't know, not familiar with that term.
    If bandits don't exist in your marxist abstraction, then maybe it's a flawed one, for clearly bandits are a real thing. I think any idea which rests upon the good of mankind is naive. We are speaking of the same humanity which gave us.. well, just look at human history.. the most recent century alone is enough to make anyone realise humanity can't be considered "good". nor is it evil either though.. it's neither. "but this can change" I imagine you'll reply... And what reason do we have to assume that is true? is it even worth to try to find out? people have tried before, it hasn't ended well. I think we've had enough tries, and enough reason to believe it wont work. Human nature can't be changed. (or maybe with cyborg and genetic-altering stuff, but then it wouldn't really be humans anymore anyways).
    All real conservatives want to protect the weak, and value stability. All real conservatives are also collectivists in the sense of valuing the many over the few. These are "ends" for any real conservative. Those people in the USA who don't want the poor to be helped, or who put the few above the many.. They are not real conservatives. it's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of HOW. The difference between conservatives and e.g. socialists is not wheter to help the poor, or wheter to help the many over the few.. It's about how. Many americans on the right don't get this.. The right to property.. it's not for the individual, but for society. They are meant to create a set of incentives so that people seeking to better their own status will do so by helping society. The invisible hand you know. Free speech is meant to allow society to better analyses ideas, to draw upon the collective wisdom and intelligence.. people who do not understand the collectivist justification for such rights, but instead think they are justified for individuals' benefits, are not real conservatives in my eyes.

    as for old-school german conservatism.. no, I am of a different brand. I suppose our ends are similar: stability. But we differ in that i actually think a lot of the ends can be achieved better without the government involved. Also.. I don't really see things like ssm and gay people as a threat to stability.
    If the nazis had been sent to camps earlier they wouldn't have been able to do any of that..

    "intimidate those who intimidate others"

    there's a better quote for you.
     
  5. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The left supports free speech only when it's them doing the speechifying. It's easy to see why limiting speech would make governing much easier, and therefore attractive to leftist politicians and their supporters..
     
  6. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would be a far better world if people just learned to follow the laws their elected officials have enacted and then to mind their own damned business. It's often the intellectually weakest who hold the strongest opinions.
     
  7. JoakimFlorence

    JoakimFlorence Banned

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    The problem is, when you limit one group's rights to free speech, who will it be next?

    Political control of speech and thought is one of the most persistent social issues in recorded history. All totalitarian governments restrict speech as a matter of course and historically even most democracies have restricted it to some degree during times of national crisis.

    In 212 BC, in ancient China, “The Burning of Books and Burying of Scholars”, or “The Fires of Qin”, named after the First Qin Dynasty Emperor, Qin Shi Huangdi, was initiated to crush discourse and political opinion, in order to unify thought, arguing that the intelligentsia fomented dissent through libel. Many key classical texts were destroyed, discussion of their content was forbidden by death, and those found in possession of outlawed books were banished as convicts to work on construction of the Great Wall. Upwards of one thousand scholars were buried alive, many of them Confucians. This policy resulted in the rapid overthrow of the Qin Dynasty by the Han Dynasty and the restoration of popular Confucianism.
     
  8. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Chinese have long been plagued by left leaning leaders.
     
  9. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

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    That's not exactly how I would characterise my position: it's more like viewing moral claims as semantically and epistemically meaningless. My moral nihilism is a linguistic stance more than anything else (I'm basically an armchair semanticist). But I'm splitting hairs.

    I haven't heard that objection before. How so?

    With all due respect, this is a political discussion forum, not a therapy group. I may or may not need to devote more time to enhancing my own life, but whether I do so or not isn't too relevant to this discussion. I don't see how it affects whether I can suggest an alternative political/economic system, either.

    Alternative political and economic changes for others? It's not like I'm advising people on changes they can make to their personal lives. I'm proposing an alternative system which is impersonal and would encompass all of society. Myself included, obviously.

    Where did you get the impression that I can't make arguments to support my case? I could literally go on all day about this. What kind of arguments do you want? I wrote a >3000-word speech last year which was essentially a propaganda speech on this very topic, if you want me to post that.

    It's a good thing that's not what I'm proposing, then.

    Killing people as an unfortunately necessary consequence of physically overthrowing a class in practice =/= killing people to advance an argument.

    Heh. To take the five examples I mentioned, none of them even got the killing done before failing. The Paris Commune and the communist effort during the Spanish Civil War failed chiefly because forces were divided, thanks in part to anarchists' and communists' appalling inability to co-operate during revolutionary situations. and external forces were too powerful and more united (though obviously it's a lot more nuanced than that). The revolutions never even took off in Germany or the UK. And in Russia, the isolation of the revolution in one backward country doomed it to failure. I'm not going to pretend that the Bolsheviki didn't make organisational mistakes (I'm not even politically Bolshevik in the strict sense), but this did not happen "once the killing was done." It existed from the beginning and worsened as the Civil War increased in severity and duration, the revolution was increasingly isolated and a couple of stupid decisions pertaining to the soviets and the economy were made.

    Now I'd like some examples of successful non-violent revolutions, pretty please.

    In what way? Some historical reference and specifics would help.

    You also seem to be acting as if no violent revolutions of any class character have ever existed at all, which is straight-up historical amnesia. What about the revolutions in England and the Netherlands in the 17th century, or the American and French ones in the following century, or the wave of revolutions across Europe in the century after that or in Russia soon after ('05)? These revolutions may have caused periods of short-term turmoil and disorder, and a lot of bloodshed, but it's the price you have to pay for the Enlightenment and the advent of liberal democracy. You would have a point if you were arguing that proletarian revolutions always fail (although we know why these revolutions failed, and it's difficult to argue that the reason was anything inherent), but to argue that all violent revolutions failed is just false. Unless you think the progression of social history is failure.

    People who understand that such conditions are transient, if they get things right?
     
  10. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

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    I don't think "smartest" is a good word to use here; its meaning is pretty debatable and subjective. I would use "class conscious" but that's also a bit of a loaded term. In any case, people have shown what I consider to be class consciousness in the past, so there is no reason to suppose that they will not do it again.

    A real thing in a certain social context, that is. It's quite ironic that you call Marxism an abstraction and proceed to imply that bandits are a real thing in the abstract.

    I agree.

    Whoa, I'm getting too predictable.

    I have issues with the terms "good" and "evil", but I also think it is naïve to consider all of humanity anything - good or evil or any other attribute. Human behaviour is situational, and cannot be reduced to an abstract set of axiomatic rules.

    Any number of things were viewed as "natural" in human history when certain ruling classes wanted to make their claims about the human condition semi-metaphysical: from slavery to religion to a perfectly nuclear family to patriarchy or matriarchy to the vaguely communal lifestyles existent in tribal and early human societies. We now know, empirically, that claims that these phenomena represent some sort of unchangeable natural state are false. The same applies to whatever your conception of human nature might be (what is it, anyway?).

    Ah, ok.

    The awkward thing here is that slightly fuzzy point where liberal conservatism and conservative liberalism seem to merge into each other (represented by most of the centre-right parties in Europe). Additionally, classical liberalism was considerably influenced by some aspects of the writings of Burke, Durkheim and others. But I would mostly agree; the American political spectrum has managed to mix classical liberalism and derived currents with conservatism, when the former is more liberal than conservative. It's weird. I'm thinking of making a thread on it, actually.
     
  11. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because if you and your friends try to achieve whatever ends you have in mind through violence you'll probably be killed or imprisoned. It might be a better way to help people directly if you want to have a positive influence on the world. You'll probably enjoy a much fuller life as well.
    With equal respect you are wanting to change the lives of others, through violence if necessary, so naturally these questions would, or should, arise. What evidence is there that you have the intellectual capacity to change the economic or political system anywhere?
    And you will use violent means if necessary. Am I correct? What form does this alternative system take?
    A brief outline would do, thanks. Has your system ever been tried before? And I never said you can't make the arguments to support your case. I just haven't seen them. You can re read the quote perhaps.
    You did mention violence in an earlier post but perhaps I misunderstood.
    Yes, that makes my point.
    I believe the most significant historical document is the Magda Carta. Of course the New Testament is extremely important as well and so are the works of the Greek Philosophers, those of the Renaissance, the Age of Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, the technological revolution, and so on. These all included revolutionary ideas which eventually led to the betterment of humankind in general. And these revolutions, inspired by each of these historical beginnings, continue.
     
  12. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

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    Like every other revolutionary in history? Somehow that doesn't bother me much.

    Sure, it's not like I don't want to do that, but there's only so far that can get you.

    I wouldn't have thought whether I am "enhancing my life" to be relevant, either to my intellectual capacity or to the proposals I make which pertain to revolutionary strategy and political theory. And of course there is no evidence, but we don't know until we try; also, it's not as if I'm going to carry out the revolution alone, or as if my ideas are original. Some elements of them are, but I'm a Marxist, not some kind of new thing.

    Yup.

    This should do:

    I could explain more about the statelessness & "moneylessness" if you want.


    I'd say it's been fully tried twice: in the Paris Commune, which we all know (and Marx & Engels knew) was weak, incomplete and a bit early, and in the October Revolution. Admittedly, the October Revolution degenerated after about 4 years (I would say) and the Bolsheviki made some pretty bad tactical mistakes, but the degeneration was also due in large part to the isolation of the revolution in one backward country. All of this is a useful learning opportunity.

    Indeed; I really should keep the caffeine handy while I post.

    Proletarian revolutionaries (i.e. not all revolutionaries) being a) human and b) affected by unfavourable conditions before they have even killed so many people, even if they are waging a full-blown war (which the Communards, the Reds in the Russian Civil War and the POUM etc. in Spain were all doing) proves that revolutionaries don't know what to do "after the killing is done"? I don't think so.

    A revolutionary idea, an idea resulting from some sort of change in material circumstance which brings about or potentially brings about a much larger change, is not the same as a revolution itself. The word "revolution" is a French loanword, and in a political context it almost always refers to the overthrow of an established economic and/or political system, in either language. Marxists would in turn interpret that as the overthrow of a ruling class, since economic and political systems according to us are based around the class whose interests they serve, and changing the mode of production/economic system and therefore the political system necessarily involves overthrowing this class. So a revolution would be something like the French or American revolution, the Russian revolutions of 1905 and Oct '17, the series of wars which led to the establishment of feudalism in the latter half of the first millennium, and so on.

    The Age of Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution were ideological and practical developments respectively which resulted from the advent of capitalism and bourgeois rule across Europe - which were consequences of the violent culminations of years of class struggle. I would characterise the Renaissance and Magna Carta as symbols of pre-revolutionary advancement. They were symptomatic of rapidly changing and progressing material conditions and showed a period during which ruling classes would sense the challenges posed to them and cave in a little in order to stay in power. But the Magna Carta was not enough to stop the English Civil War (which obviously wasn't orchestrated by barons, but was also a move by an emergent class seeking greater liberalisation) and the Renaissance, although it destroyed the restrictive ideological climate existent under earlier feudalism, did not stop the ascendant bourgeoisie from revolting a few decades later.
     
  13. Fallen

    Fallen Well-Known Member

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    Sound like some of the people on this forum has fallen a victim to it.

    What do they do? Show WW2 reruns showing Russia committing war crimes and almost, just barely, making out the fascist to be a victimized underdogs. Or showing their failures in space, not even going into their current capability. I have suffered this on memorial day. And here I was thinking that it was a time to remember our heroes who have fallen battling the idea of fascism which nearly destroyed the world. The fact that it was used to spread cold war style propaganda is a disgrace.
     
  14. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Donor

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    If only we had reeducation camps in the U.S.

    We could eliminate socialism, political correctness, and other evils.
     
  15. Face. Your

    Face. Your Banned

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    I say we go one step further and implement legally mandated castration for the holocaust denying neo-Nazi pigs so that they can no longer infect the gene pool with their mental defects, I mean they did it to others so what's good for the goose is good for the gander right? I mean it's not like the Nazi pig(*)(*)(*)(*)ing swine have any balls to start with.
     
  16. Face. Your

    Face. Your Banned

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    The OP is a holocaust denier, he's not exactly opposed to fascism he's opposed to de-Nazification.
     
  17. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is the future, at least in Europe. Can we protect speech here?. http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/8234/eu-free-speech
     
  18. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why not just have 'education camps' instead. At one time students did learn the importance of free speech, had an inkling of economics, what it took to preserve freedom, and so on. Now they seem to come out dumber than they went in.
     
  19. Fallen

    Fallen Well-Known Member

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    Ive seen this in France and now in Germany. I've seen it in US. Though our government doesn't suppress freedom of speech here, we direct it. And the companies suppress freedom of speech by firing reporter who report things outside of their agenda

    If you’ve been paying attention, you know that the American media act as presstitutes for rich and powerful Americans.

    But it turns out that the American media will turn “tricks” for foreign johns as well …

    Specifically, three time Emmy award winning reporter Amber Lyon was until very recently a respected CNN reporter:

    Lyon was fired from CNN after she refused to stop reporting on her first-hand experience of the systematic torture and murder of peaceful protesters by the government of Bahrain.

    Lyon’s special report on Bahrain was scheduled to run on both CNN’s U.S. and international networks, but was pulled after only a limited showing due to pressure from the Bahrainis and their lobbyists.

    At the same time that Lyon was risking her life to do on-the-ground reporting in Bahrain, another CNN journalist was filming a paid propaganda piece on how the Bahraini leaders are a bunch of friendly pro-democracy reformers.

    That’s right … the Bahraini government paid CNN to do what was literally an infomercial for that brutal regime and pretend it was real journalism.

    Lyon says that China and many other foreign, authoritarian regimes also pay CNN and other mainstream networks to run flattering propaganda pieces.

    ----------------------------------

    Dr. Udo Ulfkotte dropped a bombshell when he stated that the mainstream media writes under direct CIA pressure.

    I’ve been a journalist for about 25 years, and I was educated to lie, to betray, and not to tell the truth to the public.
    But seeing right now within the last months how the German and American media tries to bring war to the people in Europe, to bring war to Russia — this is a point of no return and I’m going to stand up and say it is not right what I have done in the past, to manipulate people, to make propaganda against Russia, and it is not right what my colleagues do and have done in the past because they are bribed to betray the people, not only in Germany, all over Europe.
    -Dr. Udo Ulfkotte, a top German journalist and editor and has been for more than two decades

    Dr. Ulfkotte is not alone in his claims either. As Zerohedge points out, multiple reporters have done the same and this kind of truthfulness is something the world needs more of.
    One (out of many) great examples of a whistleblowing reporter is investigative journalist and former CBC News reporter Sharyl Attkisson.
    She delivered a hard-hitting TEDx talk showing how fake grassroots movements funded by political, corporate, or other special interests very effectively manipulate and distort media messages.

    Another great example is Amber Lyon, a three-time Emmy award winning journalist at CC, who said that they are routinely paid by the US government and foreign governments to selectively report and even distort information on certain events. She has also indicated that the government has editorial control over content.

    These affirmations of state media control, while a few years old, are more relevant now than ever. Americans are slowly but surely being drawn into World War III as the US continues to saber rattle with Russia and China — and they are being told to accept it by their televisions.
    If these testimonies from former mainstream reporters are not enough, below is definitive proof that mainstream media is scripted.

    In 2013, Conan O’Brien highlighted dozens of snippets from news outlets and the resultant video compilation is disturbing, to say the least. The crowd laughs at this footage, but the reality of this video below is incredibly disheartening.

    [video=youtube;TM8L7bdwVaA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM8L7bdwVaA&feature=youtu.be[/video]

    [video=youtube;Hh_Kx7UKndI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh_Kx7UKndI&feature=youtu.be[/video]

    This is Orwell's nightmare. The big lie
     
  20. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    You should not be so glib and nonchalant as far as accepting the deaths of many to effect change.

    You most likely have never seen such a thing....or been part of it.

    I have.

    And although I am not a religious man I pray for the day when people can talk things out rather than kill each other over different ideologies.

    AA
     
  21. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    he also thinks the Jews did 9-11
     
  22. Face. Your

    Face. Your Banned

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    I wonder, did they kill JFK and fake the moon landing too?
     
  23. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  24. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Yes they should. Holocaust denial as an actual thing is right up there with Flat Earth. Just like most Flat Earth is really an attack on modern science, HD is really nothing more than a code word for Jew bashing as its entire premise is that the Jews have promulgated the most monstrous hoax that has ever been done, and it has no credible evidence for this whatsoever

    If you look carefully at most laws on hate speech it comes down to slandering an entire large group of people. Slander is never protected speech against individuals and I think America is largely alone in that we permit it to groups.
     
  25. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's important that people are free to deny the Holocaust because the civilized world will then know who and where the most dangerous and stupid people are.
     

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