Europe To Send Conspiracy Theorists To ‘Reeducation Camps’

Discussion in 'Other/Miscellaneous' started by SamSkwamch, Jun 2, 2016.

  1. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    13,669
    Likes Received:
    577
    Trophy Points:
    113

    That's not "criticism", that's hate pure and simple and such scum should not be allowed to attack innocent ppl in the street because they think its what freedom of speech stands for, can I assemble a group of racists and attack an African going in the street with his kids ? do I have the right to do that knowing that man done nothing wrong but being born ? shouldnt be.

    Ppl that are terminal with hatred should be removed from society, pick a tree in Siberia and insult it till the snow melts for all I care, not in a society.
     
  2. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And therein lies the problem.
    What I may regard as criticism you would interpret as "hate". You've also just demonstrated your willingness to remove these people from society and send them to Siberia for anything you, or any anonymous judge, may interpret as 'hatred'.. Hating those with differing opinions, even killing them, is not a new idea and in fact is going on in the Middle East, and elsewhere, today.
     
  3. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    13,669
    Likes Received:
    577
    Trophy Points:
    113
    lol, its not about hating diffrent OPINIONS and dont use my birth place as an excuse, we are talking about the principle here thou I get the feeling I know why you are concerned about it.

    Racist hatred is not presenting a diffrent opinion to counter another, its exactly the opposite of exchanging ideas, it discriminates an opinion or an idea not willing to hear it at all regardless of context - Because the man is dark skinned or a Jew !

    Who can tell ? Im sure there is something between Nazis parade in the streets and Drone thought control.
     
  4. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't know and don't care where you were born. You began this by citing poor people as victims and I responded to that. There are altready laws on the books for attacking innocent people in the streets so why additional laws are required hasn't been made clear.
    Yes, of course racism is ignorant and it's not being defended. The problem is with using emotional terms, such as 'hatred', and defining them into law.

    This is one of those very bad ideas that is welcome to abuse in the years to come and will certainly be used for political or religious purposes. Would you want to see Donald Trump, for example, or an Ayatollah, defining hate speech and then deciding the punishments?
     
  5. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    13,669
    Likes Received:
    577
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If one country in Europe were to do that alone I might raise an eye brow but I think its perfectly legit to assemble some "global" guidelines, look, I dont want nazi racists walking in the street in my country and Im sure there are many in Europe that dont want them as well,

    A few years ago a Jewish woman married a Muslim, a racist org decided they will "protest" this marriage outside of the hall - in the street where its far enough just to be legal, so here are the families, children and all need to see and hear those scumbags in the street in waht should have been their best day. why ? why should they have the "right" ruin other ppl best day ?
    Same goes to ppl laughting at dead ppl in public posts, I remember reading some hate posts when an Israeli burned that poor Arab kid, why should his relatives read such filth ? what right does it protect ?

    On persinal lvl I dont want my kids to grow up exposed to such things - if we can help that as a soicety, I think we should act, all in all we know what is a legit way of expression and what is not. critic Kenya for its anti gay laws m- dont assult a Kenyan for just being Kenyan - I think is also legit thou it wouldnt send you to a Gulag even according to this law.
     
  6. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    3,399
    Likes Received:
    217
    Trophy Points:
    63
    It's kinda too late IMHO.
     
  7. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you want a blanket law covering all people because of something some ignorant people did? Why not put the emphasis on a proper education instead? We can see that in better educated countries there are fewer examples of these sort of hate crimes you mention.

    What if one of those bad examples you mention are able to get into positions of power and use any protest against them as 'hate speech'.

    Here are a few examples of the dangers inherent in what you tend to support. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...helped-the-nazis/story-e6frgd0x-1226868018436
     
  8. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    It's one of its defining features, and often used to characterise illiberal societies and counterpose them with democracies.

    It's not just a possibility - it has happened before. How would the Paris Commune have existed without class consciousness? Or the mass mobilisation of the Spanish Revolution? Or the October Revolution? Or the many mass strikes in Germany and France and general strike in the UK?

    The term "liberal conservatism" generally makes me think of functionalism; is that where you're coming from?


    Nope, just a Marxist. Bandits don't exist in the abstract, and stability and "the weak" (I don't like this term, really; it's not specific) can often be harmed rather than helped by the state. In certain conditions the state is necessary, but in a classless society, it serves no purpose at all.

    I never would've guessed! The sort of language you're using just reminds me of old-school German conservatism - even the importance you attach to stability and protecting the weak sounds pretty continental to me. Anglo-saxon conservatism would attach more importance to "liberal" or "Western" values, though, right?
     
  9. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Are you channeling your efforts towards creating a classless society?
     
  10. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,135
    Likes Received:
    594
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Seems like a balanced and fair law focusing on ending intolerance I read the law private or common expression of personal opinions for differing opinions on such topics seem to be allowed so one could question aspects of say the Holocaust without denying it happened and it would not be considered a crime. I will note it should also curtail some more extreme religious elements from speaking unkindly about groups they don't like. Overall its not a bad law.
     
  11. Gilos

    Gilos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    13,669
    Likes Received:
    577
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sorry I find your scenario much less likely to happen because there already are rules what racism is and Europe has been fighting that for decades, no freedom fighter was vanished amid accusations he is a racist, meanwhile racist hate spreads and it has no purpose other than satisfy the sadistic urges of the pervert, such ppl are sick and they need treatment, I dont know how they were molested as children in order to grow up that way but I can do nothing about that, if I can shut them up by law and try at leasdt to help them with a bit of education - so be it, secondry IMO to the need to drag them away from society.

    Note Im talikng about the real sick and "professional" haters, not every person that shouts "(*)(*)(*)(*)ing Jew", I mean 200 Mil ppl will not get arrested be reasoable...
     
  12. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2016
    Messages:
    9,469
    Likes Received:
    1,983
    Trophy Points:
    113
    But 200 million people will get their posts censored.
    Their ability to form social connections with those who share the same unpopular ideologies as them.
    Their ability to advocate for the opposition of the day.
     
  13. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A 'balanced and fair law' restricting public speech? And you expect this 'fair and balanced' approach to continue indefinitely without any public leader, religious or political, ever abusing it? The history of humankind would strongly suggest otherwise.
     
  14. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Would we allow ayatollahs to issue fatwas against those who slander the prophet? We can see Muslims on the streets of major European cities saying 'Death to Infidels' etc. Would you want the police to arrest them fpr hate speech? The jails would be full and would do no long term good. Best these fools just shout it out and eventually the better educated among them will have greater influence.

    If sadistic perverts are your concern, as they are with all of us, then they should go to clinics where treatment is readily available, at least in the democracies. I doubt there is a need for 'hate speech laws' to deal with these people.
     
  15. Object227

    Object227 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,769
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    This is precisely the concern I would have. You grant the state the power to censor and your opponent will, if elected, censor you.
     
  16. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    I would like to think so. I mean, I'm not a total armchair activist; I've written a number of political articles and items of propaganda, I frequently attend rallies, conferences and the like, I was in a party until recently (we split) and I help where I can with regards to organising and raising awareness. But my country is pretty barren in terms of its socialist scene, unfortunately (as is everywhere else).
     
  17. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's good that you're supporting your beliefs in a non-violent manner, through the power of intellectual persuasion. That's the only way to make lasting change that sticks.
     
  18. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Eeehhh...I would disagree there. Non-violent "revolutions" have never, ever worked. The reason I'm not blowing up police HQs and crap isn't that I oppose such measures, it's that the socialist movement is far from ready for that at the moment. And I have no desire to go to juvie just yet.
     
  19. CausalityBreakdown

    CausalityBreakdown Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2014
    Messages:
    3,376
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    48
    My attitude towards violence is that throwing the first punch is counterproductive and morally dubious. It's better to undermine the state through dual-power programs and nonviolent direct action until you're forced into violence by political repression.

    Basically, I think that socialists should operate aboveground until forced underground.
     
  20. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    2,891
    Likes Received:
    635
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, I question those figures.

    Trotsky and Lenin were most certainly Jews. You might want to brush up on your history.

    Apparently.
     
  21. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    I would agree there; I was just stating that I have no opposition in principle to using violence. Violence isn't fun, but it will most likely be necessary.

    (I'm also a moral nihilist, so there's that.)
     
  22. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Oh yes, they've worked but because they are non-violent they tend to go unnoticed.

    The world has changed dramatically over the past couple of centuries and that can be attributed to non-violence rather than violence. In fact those whose ambition to change the world through violent means, such as the Fascists, Communists and Nazis, are all deservedly in history's dustbins.

    The "Socialist movement' will never be ready because most people just outgrow it and move on.
     
  23. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you have no morals then violence should come easy but, as it happens, you'll likely ruin your own life in the process. Perhaps you should devote more time in enhancing your own life rather than suggesting alternative political and economic changes for others. If you've been persuaded that changes must be made you should be able to make those same arguments to support that case.

    Killing people in order to advance your argument tends to be a losing proposition.
     
  24. PreteenCommunist

    PreteenCommunist Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,075
    Likes Received:
    23
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Do you have any examples?

    Outgrow it and move on? I don't think that's what happened in Paris, or Russia, or Spain. Nor did it happen in Germany or the UK, where revolutions almost occurred. It's more a case of revolutions failing due to bad conditions and organisational errors than anything else.
     
  25. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    19,496
    Likes Received:
    9,006
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well whatever the reason you may offer they always failed. 'Revolutionaries' are not noted for their organizational skills once the killing is done .That's largely because their ambitions are intellectually bereft, depending on slogans and violence, as you said, to maintain whatever germ of an idea they once might have had.

    These violent revolutions can only be maintained through further violence and coercion, and who wants to live their lives under those conditions?
     

Share This Page