Existence: What is the point?

It was right there:
There can be no objective purpose in life, if you exclude God. That is the consequence of belief.

Sure, you can choose some 'purpose!' arbitrarily, but it is just a delusion. There can be no 'meaning' A PRIORI, in a godless universe. It is logically impossible. You can imagine some deep purpose, or pretend your life has meaning and significance, but it does not. It doesn't matter if you're Mother Theresa, Adolf Hitler, or an aborted fetus. The universe whirls through infinite space indifferent to anything we say or do.

Only if you ASSUME atheistic naturalism, first. IF.. there is a Creator Who has plans, intentions, or directives for His creation, the conclusions are quite different.

It is a rational extrapolation. It has had no answers for the Big Questions for millennia. Why should it now suddenly know 'Why?'

 

IF.... there is no God or supernatural 'Cause', then 'God' can only be a made up concept.. for whatever reason. Fear of death? Desire for significance and purpose? Daddy issues? But, if in fact, there is no God, then the belief is a delusion.

Justice and morality are just human inventions, in a godless universe. They are not real things, but are tools for manipulation from those in power. They are crutches for those unable to face the reality of their beliefs. 'Success!' is a meaningless platitude.. survival is the only purpose, and the inventions of morality and justice have no place in a world of survival. No other animal societies display this aberration. It weakens the species. It deceives them with false illusions about humanity. They are a negative for evolving humanity, promoting a 'lowest common denominator' for our gene pool, instead of encouraging evolved superiority.

It is only irrelevant and absurd, IF there is no God.

IF.. there IS a God, then 'choosing your own', may very well be a lie, if this God has directives that are ignored.

 

And if you include God? For all your mental seeking - you're born, you live, you die.

As I said before, it is the vast universe that indicates the non-existence of a supernatural being. To create such a universe to house a creation on an insignificant planet in an insignificant part of that universe. Then to make that planet so unstable that it regularly kills the very creature you put there? Is that philosophic sense?

Only if you ASSUME atheistic naturalism, first. IF.. there is a Creator Who has plans, intentions, or directives for His creation, the conclusions are quite different.

Lets amend the bold

Only if you ASSUME atheistic naturalism, first. Only if you assume there is a Creator Who has plans, intentions, or directives for His creation, are the conclusions quite different.


Atheistic naturalism can be seen in very ancient cave paintings. Therianthropes which eventually are used as gods by people like the Egyptians. Still that's another subject..

 

Come down out of the clouds. When something happened the ancients could not understand do you think they immediately thought of death, or significance or purpose They simply wanted to know why. When they couldn't find an answer they created a 'being' to help them. If the same thing happened today we would have an answer.

That's philosophical nonsense.

At the end of a life what is the more important to humanity. That a man was a great Philosopher/ Preacher etc., or that the old person down the street is going to miss the man/woman/group who helped them when they really needed help.

 

I didn't say it is.

Here's a better question: is it a great thing that Stalin chose his own purpose in life?

 

You seem to miss the point, or can't follow simple reasoning, or are blinded by bigotry. Your reply has nothing to do with my post.

 

But you see that is the really sad part. God is just another imaginary reason for pretending a meaning to existence. Justifying existance by believe in something forbwhich there is no actual evidence is no different that justifying existance by " more" orbany of a thousand other made up reasons.

The right thing to do is just accept life and live it and know that when it is done it is done. And if by some chance you do get reborn as a cockroach just live your next existance as a roach.

 

You would have to ask him.

 

The purpose of life is death.

 

"Everybody wanna go heaven .. Nobody wanna get dead" - One of my favorite Movie lines (from a Steven Segal Movie).

At the end of the day - the point of the game may well be that there is no point. If you knew that you would be reincarnated after death - infinitely - and were given the choice - would you want to remember all your past lives .. or not ?

If you chose to remember - eventually you would run out of new experiences and perhaps descend into eternal boredom.

From the lyrics of a song by the Talking Heads "Heaven"

Everyone is trying
To get to the bar
The name of the bar
The bar is called heaven

The band in heaven
They play my favorite song
Play it one more time
Play it all night long

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

There is a party
Everyone is there
Everyone will leave
At exactly the same time

It's hard to imagine that
Nothing at all
Could be so exciting
Could be this much fun

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

When this kiss is over
It will start again
It will not be any different
It will be exactly the same

It's hard to imagine
That nothing at all
Could be so exciting
Could be this much fun

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

(continued)

 

(continued) - The idea of infinity is unnerving. "Who wants to live forever" Queen. The Christian idea of heaven is a horrible nightmare - bowing and worshiping some God day after day after day after day .. forever and ever and ever.

Not only would this repetition drive one insane ... it would drive the God being worshiped insane. Is insanity the goal .. our final purpose ?

At some point would God not wake up in the morning (assuming one gets to sleep to take a break from the continuous worshiping) and say - OK enough already .. I got it the on the trillionth day ... find something better to do with your time.

Then what ? Is there checkers and chess in heaven ? Clearly living here on earth is infinitely better than the banal existence in which perpetual worship is all one does.

Here is the song to which the lyrics were previously posted.


After much pondering - my answer to the question is no - I do not want to remember my past lives.

(continued)

 

(continued) Existence is eternal

Proof: In a world of things we don't know - and questions unanswered - one thing we do know for sure is that we exist.

"I think therefor I am" The big bang .. boom. What happened and why ? we do not know.

What we do now is this mess of chaos - there was a finite probability atoms would get together and become aware of their own existence.

How do we know this ? - we exist. In order for you to exist there had to have been a finite probability (regardless of how remote) of this event happening.

So then - will this event happen again ? Indeed it will. In an infinite amount of time - all events with a finite probability happen - and in fact in an infinite amount if time - happen an infinite amount of times.

Existence is eternal.

 

Actually only an idiot would have to ask him.

 

Then what are you breathing for?

 

Ah, I see. You haven't talked to someone who has chosen his/her own purpose in life. No, such people don't imagine some deep purpose or pretend their lives have meaning and significance beyond what they can do on their own. No, they choose something small and individual that has meaning and significance to themselves and to those immediately around them. And then they live for that purpose.

A funny and fictional example came from Douglas Adams, in one of the Hitchhiker's Guide books. An alien being had accidentally made himself immortal, and after a few thousand years of doing nothing, he decided he needed a purpose in life, so he chose one... he chose to insult everyone in the universe personally. Most disagreed with his purpose, but it meant something to him, and once he chose it, he stuck to it. He didn't pretend it was good purpose, or that it had any deep meaning or significance, but because it was his purpose, it gave his life direction and meaning. And that's enough.

I haven't decided what my purpose in life is. I have several options vying for supremacy, but as soon as I choose one, I think about the fact that it's not enough, I want to do other things, too. But I'm not deluded that whatever purpose I choose will have any deep meaning or significance.

 

I'm atheist now, but I want to address this question from a neutral perspective. "Life", however it arose, requires death in order to exist. Starting from the very first replicator, immortality is inconsistent with the existence of life. Assuming the first cell (we'll call it) gathered raw materials from its watery surroundings for energy and the ability to replicate itself, however long or short it took for replication to take place, if it and its offspring were immortal, they would quickly fill up the available space and would quickly eat up the available raw materials in the ecosystem. At that point, two things would have to happen: 1) some of the replicators would have to die to release the raw materials back into the ecosystem for the other replicators to survive; 2) some of the replicators would have to eat some of the other replicators in order to gain the raw materials needed to survive. So death would have occurred shortly after life simply out of necessity. And this is true whether you believe in evolution or creation. Can you imagine immortal rabbits? How about immortal tigers? Can you imagine immortal fish? The ocean would be filled from top to bottom with living but immobile fish. No, philosophically, death is necessary, however unpleasant it may be to contemplate in our own instance, even for believers.

 

I don't believe this question is answerable on an individual basis.

But on a collectice scale, I believe God created us to rival Him. Not rival as in fight, but as in to become similar or equal in power and ability.

Heres my general logic behind my position:

Can an all powerful being create an equal? Is such a being truly all powerful if it has an equal? We were made in the image of the Creator, and as such, it would make sense that we could glimpse insight into what makes the Creator 'tick.' We continually increase our ability to manipulate our environment aka our reality by creating or innovating ...sometimes merely to see if we can. Provided a long enough timeline, its reasonable to postulate that we could attain relative equality to God in our ability to manipulate our surroundings, and possibly 'face' God on effectively even ground. Will we greet Him, thank Him, hate Him, try to destroy Him? Can we overpower His Will with our own? If we could, that would be the ultimate display of His power, or perhaps if we could and choose not to, that we be the ultimate display if His power.

We are God's children. Perhaps He merely wants us to become greater than He, as all good parents do.

 

That's why I suggested you do it!

 

You are better suited to the task by at least a millionfold, obviously.

 

I addressed this some, in the OP:

Is there a god? Is there something or someone beyond our sensory realm? It is very ironic that this most basic question for our existence remains in such dispute. But it brings up an observation that should be evident.

If there is a god, he has hidden himself so as to remain a mystery.

Humans have argued for millinea over his nature, traits, & even existence. The central reason we search for god is we want to know if our existence here is all there is, or is there an afterlife? The survival instinct is great, & the prospect of eternal death & non-existence is unsettling. We want to live. So then the question arises:

Is there a god, or have we 'created' him in response to our fear of death?

The first question, 'Is there a God?', is the start, then the next one, 'What is He like?' For it is the obvious that we cannot observe anything to help us determine the answers to these questions in the natural universe.

You propose some beliefs about God. Maybe you're right. Maybe not. You have arrived at your conclusions.. beliefs.. over the years, based on the influences in your life. They are fine beliefs, and as good as anyone else's.

The problem arises comparing them with everyone else's beliefs. There are so many opinions, theories, speculations, and guesses about this cosmic mystery, how can anyone know? Is it even possible to know?

Regarding equality with God:
1. Why would God create an equal? If we are equal with God, He would no longer fit the definition of God. We are finite, confused, stupid, vain, and powerless. God is at least able to create the universe. When we can do that simple thing, we can further discuss parity with God. Until then, God is infinite, immortal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.. no created human can possibly be His equal.

 

We are not God. We may be able to become God. Not you or I, probably, but those that come after us.

 

Of course i have. But that is irrelevant. The question is ultimate purpose.. or purpose A PRIORI, for our lives.

It is simple logic:

IF...
There IS a God, He may have directives, goals, or some purpose for our existence.. that is a possibility, in a universe designed and orchestrated by a Supreme Being.

IF..
There is NOT a God, but only the random chance of atheistic naturalism, then there is no possibility of an objective 'purpose.' You can pick something, and pretend it is significant and meaningful, but that is a delusion. Adolf Hitler, Mother Theresa, and an aborted fetus have the same significance and meaning: none.

That is the only logical conclusion of a godless universe. A theist dedicated to some altruistic cause of sacrifice and service is only deluding himself, that his efforts are the will of God, in a godless universe. A serial killer, or a tyrannical despot who kills millions of people is just as insignificant and meaningless as an aborted fetus. Anyone can do whatever they choose, and it does not matter, in a godless universe.

Human beings delude themselves. That is an observable reality. They can delude themselves that their lives have significance and meaning, pretending to serve God. And, they can pretend their lives have significance and meaning in a godless universe.

So sure.. pick the delusion you like best. If the universe is godless, it doesn't matter anyway. But if there IS a God, and some objective purpose or directive from Him, then there might be consequences to choosing. A delusion might have repercussions, in a God made universe.
.maybe not.. but there is that possibility, in a universe created by God.

 

IF...
This is a godless universe, your conclusions are rational. 'Meaning' is imaginary. Purpose is a delusion. Accept life, have fun, or not. Scream at the empty darkness, or pretend Someone is listening. It is all a delusion, in a godless universe. There is no 'right' thing to do. Everything is right and wrong, as the terms are empty platitudes in this universe.

Maybe. That is certainly our destiny, to die a physical death. The Big Question, is considering the possibility of a spiritual soul, that lives on after physical death.

That seems impossible, in a godless universe. It might be possible in a God made universe.

It is the only possibility, in a godless universe. It may even be our destiny in a God made universe. But how can we know?

We don't. This is your speculation or belief.

If there is no God, then this is a plausible explanation for our existence. But we don't 'know' that this happened, or if it is even possible. The alternate 'theory', is that a Supreme Being created life, matter, and sentience.

 

The struggles of life.. survival, other people, family and friends.. our own foibles and hangups.. are common to everyone. Beliefs about eternity don't really change the struggles, though they can provide perspective and peace to endure them.

At some point, in everyone's life, we look fearfully into the abyss of eternity.. we may believe, wish, hope, or resign ourselves to some destiny, but it is out of our control. We will die, and face the darkness with no one.. just our singular soul and the Creator.

All the babblings and opinions of others are irrelevant, at this point. It is between you and eternity.

It is not a comfortable, feel good perspective.. gazing into the outer darkness. But we either man up, and face it, or we live a delusion. It doesn't matter if you are universally loved by all, with adoring family supporting us, or if we are despised by all, friendless and alone. We cross that river alone, and it is between the individual and his Creator.

That Creator is either a Supernatural Being, or Nothing. Our beliefs, opinions, or the assertions of others will not change this Reality.

Can we 'know' if there is a Supernatural dimension, with a Supreme Creator Who designed our existence? Might it be possible?

It seems obvious to me, that there IS an objective Truth, and that it might be possible to know it.

It also seems supremely arrogant to declare a LACK of knowledge about the universe to conclude Nothingness. I did it, once, and am boggled by my own flawed reasoning.. declaring Nothingness from my own ignorance. If i hadn't done it myself, i would think it impossible, for a rational human being.

I believe the complicated nuances of reasoning, the scarcity of facts, the confusion and commotion in this world, the arrogance of ego, and the madness of sin, all jumble together in our bewildered minds to form a worldview. We don't know if we're right. We CANNOT know, with only our own minds. Information about the universe is very obscure.. the Creator must be the One to inform us. Nobody else can do it.

It has been my experience, corroborated by the experiences of others, that the Creator CAN and DOES, impart this information to us. We can know the truth about the Creator (and ourselves), though it is more uncomfortable than ignorance. IMO, it depends more on if we really want to know, and seek this Truth with unflagging determination. ..and, of course, the will of the Creator. I do not know why He reveals Himself to some, and not to others. Some seem to be given over to madness and ignorance.. their hearts and minds seared or scarred so that even if Truth stares them in the face, they cannot see it.

 

Maybe. That is plausible, IF.. you make the assumptions. There are other equally plausible theories about our existence, based on other assumptions.

But it seems obvious that natural, physical life has death as an essential element. Nobody gets out of here alive.