Fonda Calls Nam Photo 'An Unforgivable Mistake'

In what wars are people exempt from war crimes and other acts of treason?

What age are people exempt from the above acts?

What time limit is there?

 

It is a problem because South Vietnam and her allies dared to fight back in the first place. They should have simply have rolled over and showed their bellies and peacefully accepted their new masters.

Yes, North Vietnam had the right to shoot down the bombers. And the US had the right to send those bombers because of the war of aggression being waged by that nation on her ally, South Vietnam. If North Vietnam did not like it, maybe they never should have attacked, and actually honored her agreements to end the war.

To me, so many arguments like this are akin to defending a wife beater because the older brother of his spouse dared to attack him for beating his sister. The wife beater got what he deserved, and to me even to this day North Vietnam got what it deserved for starting a war of conquest.

 

So if you think what the North Vietnamese were doing was OK, then why should they think Jane Fonda being with them was NOT OK ?

 

You need not wonder any longer. I will now explain it to you. And it's very easy to understand (even if you are getting this more than half a century too late-better late than never)

The reason why your whole argument has no substance at all is because there could not have been an invasion of any "
North Vietnam" upon any "South Vietnam". For your edification, these terms are only creations of the US govt and some people in the southern half of Vietnam. There never was any such thing as "North" Vietnam, or "South" Vietnam. The entire time from the 1940's up to now, Vietnam has been ONE COUNTRY.

The North and South distinctions were only temporary provisions made after the international conference in Geneva in 1954 (participated in by many countries including the USA, Soviet Union, China, the UK, France, et al).. These "Geneva Accords", as they were called created this temporarysplit up after the end of the French-IndoChinese War only to have a ceasefire to allow the forces loyal to the French to withdraw peacefully to the south, while the Vietnamese forces withdrew to the north, and thereby reduce fighting during the post-war time.

It was stipulated that a general election would then be held in Vietnam by July, 1956, which would decide who would rule all of Vietnam, to create a unified Vietnamese state. Got all that so far ? OK. So the former ruler of Vietnam, Diem (perhaps the most hated by his own people politician who ever lived), who was the kiss-ass guy for the French while they were colonizing the country, simply decided he was not going to step down. He manged to utilize Eisenhower's desire for tin & tungsten (resources Vietnam had ) to get Ike to commit troops into the country, which they did arrive and set up in the southern part of the country.

As a result of the US troops, and Diem's refusal to hold the democratic elections that the Geneva Accords called for, Diem, hatred by his people, continued to rule (in the south at least). Diem had no support whatsoever. The only people who liked him were the French who were the Vietnamese people's enemy, Without the presence of Eisenhower's troops, Diem wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes, and probably would have been hung in the town square.

This FALSE set-up created by Diem, is what created a continuation of the Geneva Accords separation of the county into North & South, with no validity whatsoever. This left the Vietnamese people (who wanted Ho Chi Minh as their leader) with no recourse but to fight a guerrilla war in the south against Diem and the US troops (or anybody who would support Diem).
A bit later, the Vietnamese troops in North Vietnam fought too, and people started calling them "North Vietnam".

In reality, there was never a North or South Vietnam. It was all one country, and it doesn't get an official separation just because one selfish, looney "leader" declares it so (especially when half the world went to the trouble of setting up a democratic election process (the Geneve Accords).

So who were these North Vietnamese guys. They were ALL of the people of the country who supported Ho Chi Minh, and opposed Diem (but had gone north in a temporary compliance with the Geneva Accords) As for support, in 1954, Eisenhower said "If the Geneva Accords election had been held in Vietnam, over 80% of the people would have voted for Ho Chi Minh.

Later on, in 1967, in a widely shown documentary >> Vietnam: A Television History, Eisenhower said if the election had been held 100% of the Vietnamese would have voted for Ho Chi Minh.

So the reason why the North Vietnamese were the good guys is because 1. they weren't the North Vietnamese they were the Vietnamese, and 2. they (ALL the Vietnamese) got screwed out of having their favorite leader (Ho Chi Minh) be their leader, by Diem and the presence of US troops, who Diem conveniently for him leaned on to protect him.

 

Well, LOL, despite trying not to, you did succeed in getting in trouble with the mods (although I doubt you'll "get evicted from the board." You did violate rules by engaging in a personal attack by calling me a "bigot".. As for your opinion on Islam, you display a great deal of ignorance. There is a very wide consensus throughout the world that Islam is not a religion at all. It lacks a code of ethics (it is grossly immoral, and illegal to US laws in numerous ways), and it is nothing more than a looney ideology, masquerading as a religion, to shield itself from criticism.

It's obvious how Islam came to be purported as a "religion". When the founders of it were espousing imperialist genocidal mass murder, extreme misogyny, rape, pedophilia, kidnapping/slavery, torture/mutilation, racial and sexist discrimination, animal cruelty/killing, and other vile things, and were looking for troops to join them in their conquests throughout Asia Minor, they needed something very powerful and extreme to offset and shield them from the severe condemnation they were sure to get.
The answer was religion. By pretending that the Koran, and all of its hatred and immorality was the word of God, they forced the people to accept it. After all, nobody wants to go against God do they ? As this grandiose con job spread, over time, it became deeper and deeper entrenched as a religion, and more and more difficult to abolish or reform.
And it spread only because the murderous Muslim marauders who spread it, killed 270 million people around the world to do that. Many, if not most, Muslims living today, trace their ancestry back to people who were non-Muslims and were forced to become Muslims. Hell of a way for someone to call himself a Muslim.

As foe those who don't oppose Islam, here's what they are not opposing (all in the Koran) >>> Genocidal murder, assault & battery, wife-beating, rape, pedophilia, severe discrimination against women, slavery, animal cruelty, torture/mutilation) >> all immoral, and ll ILLEGAL under US law.

PS - As a supremacist and seditionist ideology, Islam is also unconstitutional for its intolerance of free speech, press, and religion. And is in direct violation of Article 5, Section 2 of the Constitution (the Supremacy Clause), and in violation of US Code 2384 (Seditious Conspiracy).

Only a complete idiot would ever convert to this monstrous evil.

http://www.islam-watch.org/IW/aboutus.htm

http://www.scoop.it/t/terrorists/p/...gion-denied-religious-tax-status-atlas-shrugs

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/27211

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/islam-and-the-definition-of-religion.html

http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2010/07/28/islam-not-a-religion/

http://www.halfsigma.com/2011/01/islam-not-a-religion.html

http://alisina.org/blog/2011/04/08/is-islam-a-religion/

http://blogs.ssrc.org/tif/2010/07/28/islam-not-a-religion/

http://avideditor.wordpress.com/200...ion-nor-is-it-a-cult-it-is-a-complete-system/

http://creepingsharia.wordpress.com/2011/09/19/islam-is-a-political-system-not-a-religion/

 

gee wonder where we got that idea from mr general???







if it so offends you, write your elected officals. or better yet the ACLU Nazi's

 

I'm not offended one iota by this man's paraphenelia pertaining to World War II and Pearl Harbor. In fact, I display a reverence for the US military in World War II myself, right here in this forum, in my avatar. Try clicking on it, and take a close look. I also wouldn't be offended by military displays pertaining to 9/11, and the war in Afghanistan, which I support 100%.

And I'm not offended by military displays regarding the Vietnam War either, I just think that they are stupid, because the people who fought there did it improperly, without any good cause. Before I ever point a gun at anyone and start shooting, I'm going to need one hell of a good reason why, and with Vietnam, that good reason never existed, as I already explained.

PS - my hat says ARMY VETERAN, has the crossed swords pin, and the US Army logo (but no reference to Vietnam). I am proud of my service.

PPS - As a Conservative, I don't speak to the American Civil Laughingstock Union, except maybe to holler at them once in a while.

 

your not?? well you should be. my late dad and uncle served in that war and they witnessed allied troops blowing up women and children. ya know a bomb falling from the sky did not have "eyes" to avoid them either. they were used for shields. just like today. but hey that's fine with you. they attacked us so we had a blank check to kill em all.

do you know they are pulling kids off the line in Afghanistan for killing civilians. did Afghanistan or Iraq attack us or is it just your hatred of Muslims?? your as two faced as they come. you blame all of us for for the actions of a few. just like all the other wars. we didn't want to go. we were ordered to

go to war
go to jail
or go to Canada. what would have been your choice?? well you came home with clean hands and that gives you the right to crap on all of us. your pathetic

I don't wear any hat with "crossed swords pins" and nor any medals. I wear nothing to draw attention to my service. know why??? my war's over. finished. done. that's why. the only thing that still haunts me is the 58,000 plus who died for nothing.

BTY the military smokes cigarette's like a chimney. always have always will. live with it. not about to ask you to change. your to old and set in your ways.

I'm finished with you. for good.

 

Well, at least Miss Fonda apologized for her mistake.

Strangely, none of the right wing Republican chicken hawks who attacked the war apologized for their actions in dodging the draft. And not so strangely, the forum right wingers fail to criticize them for their stupidities.

 

She was an American lending support to our enemy. She could have easily used her fame to great effect by protesting here in the USA. Why do you defend her when she now seems to understand and regret her mistake? Are we taking about Fonda or the war in general? I think the war was a mistake, but so was Jane's visit to the North.

 

I'm curious which right wing Republican chicken hawks attacked the Vietnam war and then dodged the draft?

 

1. You've GOT TO BE KIDDING. You went to Nam and fought, and you have the nerve to come in here and crab about soldiers in World War II, and what happened there ? Lot's of bad things happen in wars (including to civilians), but the US has to protect itself from enemies attacking us, and declaring war on us. Neither of those was the case with Vietnam, and you know it.

2. So you don't know why US troops are fighting in Afghanistan ? Well, that doesn't surprise me, since you're even clueless about Vietnam, 50 years after the fact.
EARTH TO NAM VET : US troops need to be in Afghanistan for 2 primary reasons. 1) to deny al Qaeda the use of the non-nation to train bombers who would come here and kill Americans (or people in other countries) 2) to be in position to move quickly into Pakistan to secure Pakistan's 100+ nuclear warheads, in the event that the fragile Pakistani govt were to fall to the Islamist loons, eager to get their hands on those nukes, and use them against us. This is perhaps the best reason for US troops to be somewhere overseas than at any time in US history.

3. My unit was not selected to go to Vietnam. If it had been I would have refused to shoot at anyone, period. I would have accepted a non-combat role (engineers, medical, whatever) If they insisted I fight, I would have refused and taken whatever were the consequences. My soul is a lot bigger than the alternatives you mention, and killing people who have done me no harm doesn't fly.

4. The hat I wear has nothing to do with my service. It may say ARMY VETERAN on it, but a previous hat I had (and lost) only had the US Army logo. The same store where I bought the first one didn't stock those any more , so I bought the one they had. I don't wear it to glorify myself as a veteran. I wear it for one reason. To keep people conscious that we are at war right now, and I wear it primarily, for the heroic young people over in Afghanistan fighting and dying.

5. As for your statement >>> "I wear nothing to draw attention to my service" No ? Is that why you call yourself "NAM VET" , and have a logo that reads >>> "Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club"

 

"Hawks" is a term which described those who advocated the Vietnam War, not who attacked it.

 

I agree what she did was mistaken, or alt least in very poor taste (to put it mildly), but what was far worse than what she did, was the US bombers flying those planes that those North Vietnamese antiaircraft guns were aiming at. And the US soldiers who were shooting at people who never did them any harm. My beef is that it is these mindless killers who are the first ones to criticize Jane Fonda, when what they did was far worse. To my knowledge Jane Fonda never fired a gun at anyone. Never killed anyone. She can go to her grave without that being on her conscience. The shooters and bombers can't. And how do you arrive at calling North Vietnam "our enemy". Did they bomb your town ? Did they shoot at people in your town ? Did they fly planes into tall buildings in New York and Washington DC ? Did they shoot and kill 13 US soldiers in Fort Hood, Texas (or anywhere in the United States) ???????

 

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ziiiiiing...........right over your head

 

Did Afghanistan/Iraq bomb your town ? Did they shoot at people in your town ? Did they fly planes into tall buildings in New York and Washington DC ? Did they shoot and kill 13 US soldiers in Fort Hood, Texas (or anywhere in the United States) ???????

 

Lot's of bad things happen in wars (including to civilians)

my point right there. and it went right over your head

 

I hope to live long enough to urinate on Jane Fonda's grave.

 

Being born in '64, the Vietnam war was not mine...so it's up to each veteran who was actually part of it to hold a grudge against Jane Fonda, or forgive and move on. Not my place to speak for any of them.

To lighten the mood a bit, I found this "faux" military news site similar to the Onion...and the following article I thought was amusing.

Vietnam veterans outraged over christening of USS Jane Fonda

Source: http://www.duffelblog.com/2012/06/vietnam-veterans-outraged-over-navy-christening-of-uss-jane-fonda/

Some of the other "stories" are equally hilarious...

"Navy SEAL Awarded Silver Star For First Ever Confirmed Kill With Prosthetic Leg"

"Stolen Valor Claim After Man Poses As Elite Administrative Soldier"

"Coast Guard Finally Shoots Something"

Not to detract from the seriousness of war and the 58,000 Americans who gave their lives for their country during the Vietnam conflict.

 

I know what the term means. That's the reason why I wanted some explanation of what it was you meant. You wrote, "Strangely, none of the right wing Republican chicken hawks who attacked the war apologized for their actions in dodging the draft. And not so strangely, the forum right wingers fail to criticize them for their stupidities."

Now, the implication there is that there were right wing Republican chicken hawks, who didn't go to the war, and attacked the war. So are you saying they shouldn't have apologized, since they opposed the war they should have dodged the draft, or something else? I find this statement confusing.

- - - Updated - - -

I found that site a couple of months ago, and it's hilarious! The style is very similar to The Onion, but some of the jokes are so inside I doubt it would be amusing to people other than current and former military.

 

This has nothing to do with the OP. Start a thread on the evils of the Vietnam War and post all your criticisms there would be my suggestion. Probably many threads on the topic already.

 

Sure she is; but I don't know what good it does to rail against her at this point, considering who currently occupies the office of Secretary of State.

 

Funny history you have here. Because every history I have read about the history of Vietnam has the nations of North and South Vietnam being created by both the French, the Vietnamese Emperor, and the Viet Minh themselves.

I suggest you try to learn some real history, not Propaganda (and really bad propaganda at that). And you can start by reading up on the Geneva Conference of 1954 (and the Geneva Accords that were written during them). In this agreement, the Viet Minh would gain control of North Vietnam, and the nation of South Vietnam would be created south of the 17th Parallel. This was agreed to by the French and North Vietnamese.

And BTW, the US had no involvement at all in Vietnam at this point.

Nice try, you get an A for effort. To bad you get an F in history and reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Demilitarized_Zone

*****

This is what I mean constantly by doing research. You have done absolutely none. You do not even have any real information or knowledge of even the creation of North Vietnam and South Vietnam. Heck, you did not even get the country right as to which created these 2 countries.

South Vietnam was as real as South Korea is. It was created by agreements to which the Northern Communist side agreed to respect the division, and in each time they violated that agreement and proceeded to attempt to forcefully conquer their new neighbor. The fact that North Vietnam violated their agreements should be obvious that they were not a trustworthy nation. And yet you still defend them.

Sorry, I do not believe you. And I believe very little that you say. All I see is somebody who has very little grasp on reality.

**laughs**

The US created South Vietnam, that is hilarious. And have not even the most rabid apologist of North Vietnam try to make that claim. But continue to live in your fantasy world, just do not expect anybody who knows how to do even basic research to believe you on that.

 

As "the Rock" (of WWE fame) would say "IT DOESN"T MATTER" if Afghanistan bombed my town. Actually, when we went into Afghanistan there was not even any such thing as Afghanistan (as a country). It's appearance on the map is more of a result of the outer borders of the countries that surround it, rather than any borders of its own. And the current situation isn't all that much better, with many areas of the "country" still not loyal to any central government.

That being said, YES, the people the US troops are fighting against (al Qaeda) DID bomb my town >>> New York City (where I was born and raised) and killed 3000 people there. And YES, they did kill 13 US soldiers in Fort Hood, Texas.
And YES they did shoot at people in my COUNTRY (LAX, Washington DC beltway, et al) Hadn't you heard ?

And the need to keep Pakistan's nukes out of the hands of Islamist loons is the #1 reason for US troops to have ever gone anywhere in the world. Get it ?