FREE college, college for EVERYONE!!!

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Bluesguy, Dec 8, 2019.

  1. Plasticman

    Plasticman Member

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    I don't think anyone can substantiate a blanket statement like "More education is better." All educations are not equal in their ability to enable higher earnings. I found an insightful article that states the unemployment rate among college grads of certain majors is significantly higher than average.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackke...s-why-universities-are-to-blame/#47b0afaf320b

    I'm fine with my tax dollars going toward college students who will go on to fill jobs that are greatly in demand. The thing is, those students don't need any help because they are able to pay back their student loans after graduating. The college grads struggling with debt are the ones who didn't acquire the skills necessary for a high paying job. The solution is not to take money from the productive to further fund these "soft" majors. Right now colleges are being irresponsible and government is enabling them.
     
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  2. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    and 90% of the colleges would close. Now the top 10% of colleges, the Ivys, Northwestern, duke, Standford would all still survive, but even they would be hurt greatly by no government research. All the public colleges would close except for a small top tier. How does that make America a stronger country?

    And your statement regarding having skilled work done by a high school grad is the most stupid that I have read on this site. Yes I want someone not trained to tell me a hurricane is coming, or to program missisles..
     
  3. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    "Free" college could be as easy as Paying an average of $300 a credit. 50% of classes taken on line. Students only attend 1/2 the time. Colleges go to a trimester 48 week, 16 week, while Universities can stay at 2.

    Private colleges and join a group offering an online presense.
     
  4. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what you mean by a high paying job. Outside of ENG and CS what jobs are high paying our of school? Most college grads are not worth 50,000 grand out of school but 7 years down the road they may be worth 100,000. Take a typical business degree for example. or a finance student starting at a bank.
    Trying to live on 40 grand, when 500 is HI and your apartment is 1,000 and you owe 6,000 a year you're eating ramen.

    College education can and should be subsidesed and not fully paid. Hell another thing is Reimbusiing tuition by skills needed. Gender majors get 50%, CS majors get 100$. Nurses get 100%, English majors 50%, Science and math Teachers 100%, etc.
     
  5. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    You are the hiring manager with 2 candidates. 1 just got out of college. 22 years old and 1/4 million bucks in debt and no experience or work references. The other is 22 years old. Left brick and mortar school at 13. Has 9 years of experience working his/her way up through the ladder while earning licenses and certs. Has no debt and can under-charge the college grad. Ton of references stating that this person is a great, smart, educated and credentialed pro. Which do you choose to hire?
     
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  6. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    It would make the government even more useless than it is today. Just imagine, hiring traffic engineers with no degree, or the VA hiring doctors with no degrees.
     
  7. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    I would never hire the person who quit school at 13. I would wonder how unstable his family situation is, and that will eventually come to interfere.
     
  8. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    what are you talking about? you cant leave school at 13 And you must be talking about a 1 in a 1000 person that can perform a job at 13 years old. At 13 you have no experience with any math concepts, can barely put together a sentence. Please tell me the career choice are you speaking of.
     
  9. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, its not the 1920s anymore.
     
  10. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    Traffic engineers with certs and licenses and have 10 years of experience vs. a newb with a fake degree obtained cuz daddy made one a legacy?

    150 years ago, 13 was about 1/3 through your life. It is considered the "age of reason". 13 year olds (I've heard the Pilgrims sent their 10 year olds into apprenticeships at 10 for fear they would become spoiled sitting around at home) actually historically got married, had babies, made homes and more. Today we have an artificially prolonged adolescence that is killing us.

    As noted above, historically, 13 was near middle age. It is the age of reason. I posit that a 13 year old would be better off in an apprenticeship learning welding and making money than sitting, arms folded and defiant in the 7th grade institution being brain washed.
     
  11. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    That change in requirement would actually do little to reduce people wanting to go to college. The federal government (outside of active duty military) hires about 2 million people out of the 160 million employed people.

    College requirements are there for a reason. In this day and age, somebody who doesn't go to college (unless they have an actual trade like plumber, electrician, etc.) lacks common sense.
     
  12. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    Not talking about 150 years ago. I'm talking about real people today. If a person today quit school at age 13, that means they are on the streets as a runaway, probably living as a prostitute. Again, I'm talking about today's life, not historical life.

    There is no way to get an engineer's license without a bachelor's degree. Please live in the real world, and not a fantasy one based on partial history and myth.


    Not really. 13 was not anywhere near middle age.That's one of those silly myths that people keep promulgating. A 13 year old would be an apprentice, and not considered a full-fledge adult.

    I don't doubt that many kids would be better off in an apprenticeship, but that's not how things are set up. In today's United State of America, a 13 year old who is not in school lives a majorly dysfunctional life, and will probably never be capable of doing much more than manual labor.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
  13. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    I agree. If a 13 year old were to leave school today, it would be against the law. Where I am from, while my boy was in school, they changed the law so that he could no longer leave brick and mortar school at 16 but now had to remain till 18. This was a cruel waste of his time at an important point in his life. And millions of other young are suffering, wasting huge chunks of their lives having some self serving government employee bloviating at them rather than them getting a 1st job, learning skills, earning money, getting married, having babies, contributing to having families, communities and nations. We are dying. We have to change. And we have to change how we train our young and integrate them into our society. Instead, "free" college will take us further down a road that leads to serfdom and destruction.
     
  14. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    13 year olds do leave school today. It's illegal, but it's done, and more than likely those 13 year olds have run away from home and are on the streets.

    I do agree something needs to be done about education, but this vendetta against college and the assumption that you seem to have that college ruins people is just silly and counterproductive. People with college degrees have weathered every economic downturn better than those without. Why? Well, most of us are smarter than those who don't go to college, plain and simple. (not all, but most). Pretty much in today's world, unless you have some kind of trade, you are a total idiot to stay away from college. College is where we learn intellectual skills. I'm in a field that didn't exist when I was in college, yet the skills I learned in college are what allow me to do this job. They weren't specialized skills, but more generalized ones.
     
  15. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why is that a problem? A little hardship may be exactly what is needed to spur hard work and self reliance for the future. When the taxpayer is forced to pay for some people's wants and desires, those people have no need to work hard and have self reliance. Subsidizing irresponsibility breeds more irresponsibility and also fuels an increasing expectation of more entitlements. Then, the taxpayer feels cheated, and the irresponsible feel hatred for the taxpayer who says "enough is enough already."

    How much more free stuff do you people want? Seriously. I pay enough as it is, and the takers constantly scream "more, more, more, more, you owe me MORE!" When does it stop?
     
  16. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    Those 13 year olds that leave school now may have issues that cannot be fixed. But there are those who would do well to leave school at 13 if we had the infrastructure to help them get their first living quarters, career advice to get them started at a job that can be reached from their new home by public transportation (13 too young to drive... but self driving cars may be less than 20 years away). Chicken and egg issue regarding smart people in college. If you have the wherewithal to graduate at the top of MIT, maybe you have what it takes to be successful on any other number of paths other than college. Examples https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/10/10-...ionaire-and-billionaire-college-dropouts.html . I'm glad you were able to use general skills gleaned in college in a job that did not even exist back then. I'm writing, there were other ways to glean those skills outside of brick and mortar education. My job did not exist 20 years ago. I credit my USAF tech training and a cert program for where I am today more than my college education.

    This brings me back to why I am against brick and mortar schools after the age of 13. This current paradigm is a drag on the US economy. It costs a lot, wasting a ton of time and money institutionalizing young minds that could be learning, growing, and earning in a different paradigm. I do not want people starting their careers old, broke, in a lousy economy with no jobs and little hope of marriage, families having babies and a future for the modern world. We're on a nightmare path towards societal collapse. We need to get off of it. Find new and better ways to train our young and have a good start in adult life.
     
  17. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    The recent college grad is working and delaying gratification. I don't think student loans should be forgiven but I don't think the interest rate should be 7% when a 20 year bond is 1/2 that. I think people in student loan debt should be allowed to give 1% of their future earnings for every 25,000 owed. you make 50 grand you pay 500 a year for 45 years, and as your salary goes up do to skill or inflation your payments rise. This will allow you to live a life that you would not be able to paying off a 50,000 debt for ten years at 7%. Which calculates out to 580 a month. Now since college grads earn 50% more than high school grads that grad paying 2% more of his salary every year for 45 years still has him up by 48%.

    Now when you take into consideration that using a 2.5% income growth means that your last year of employment you will be making 150,000 and paying 1,500 yearly.
     
  18. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    It will do nothing to diminish the kids wanting to go to college. Never inferred that it would. just that if government funding dried up 90% of the seats would fold. Take into consideration 1955 for example we graduated 450,000 of which 25% were on the GI bill. whish was the only government sponsored help. So that is 325,000 families that could afford college. There are now over 2 mill attending college mainly due to government subsidies and loans. You cant take 75% of the money out of an industry and expect that industry to stay in business. Even considering the population doubling that is 2/3rd of seats will be lost.
     
  19. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    Quit it. you take a kid with an 8th grad ed and you tell me he is going to do load calculations without learning advanced math. Like some engineer with a PE license is going to take 20 hours a week of his time to teach a kid basic algebraic equations so that the 13 year old 8 years later can help him for the same price that a 22 year old out of college can do now. Now he might do it for his own kid, but someone else?
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
  20. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that 8th grader leaves school, starts spreading tar 5 hours a day building our highways rather than sitting with his arms folded, defiant telling his jailer they will not teach him, and then takes an online advance math course earning certs over time. I do have to wonder how much math one would have to learn before being ready to start doing the calculations of which you write. He certainly shouldn't have to be institutionalized for decades of his life.
     
  21. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    What jailer? Why doesn't this kid like school? As far as math goes 5 semesters of college work before you can sit for your PE. If at 13 he/she realizes college is not for him he should go to a vocational high school where he can learn a trade. Upon graduation you are a qualified apprentice and then you just have to put in your 6000-8000 hours under a master to take the test for your journeyman's license. College is not for everyone and a lot of the trades such as electrician, HVAC, Plumbing and steamfitting are in great demand.
    The average age of a plumber in mass is 52 years old.
     
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  22. gorfias

    gorfias Well-Known Member

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    So there is this thing called a PE? I write, if someone can pass it, it does not matter how they educated themselves (College or online part time cert classes). Requiring a college degree is just an arbitrary way of maintaining a power structure and diminishes the role of real merit in our lives while wasting time, money and effort.

    But why would a 13 year old hate school? For one, s/he has no choice at 13. It is literally criminal to not go. Biologically, they know they are ready to start adult life. This institutionalization thing is artificially prolonging adolescence. Believe it, plenty of young people out there resent that.
     
  23. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    And those same kids that resent school will resent a boss telling them what to do so I don't get your point. 90% of kids like school at age 13, It is where they go to meet friends. Kids are curious and want to learn if their parents even did a 1/2 way decent job bringing them up. To think that a 13 year old has the maturity to make a lifetime decision is crazy.
     
  24. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Banned

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    Free college for everyone just means you need an associate's degree to get a job flipping burgers.
     
  25. Observing

    Observing Well-Known Member

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    Why do you say that? There are 15 mill college students now, now many more do you think there will be if it was free? I would think no more than 10% more. I think people who don't attend college now do so because college is not for them more than the cost. For people who cost is the main consideration it think it is how do they support themselves for those years more than the cost of attending.

    This will be the death kneel for most private schools in the US as public colleges ramp up enrollment over the next 10 years.
     

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