Gender Roles And Positive Middle Path

Discussion in 'Women's Rights' started by ibshambat, Jan 11, 2018 at 5:51 AM.

  1. ibshambat

    ibshambat Well-Known Member

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    In most of the world, gender roles are very rigid, and conformity to them is required to an absolute.

    In some of the world, gender is seen as an artificial construct, and any acknowledgement of differences between men and women is seen as sexism or even misogyny.

    I have dealt with both worlds. Both worlds have influenced me, and both worlds see in me one another and are attacking me for what they see. And to both sets of attackers I say that they don't know what they are talking about. It is wrong to attack me for something that is present to a much greater extent in people from the place from which I came, and many of which features I fought – in some cases at a great cost to myself. And it is also wrong to attack me for something that I learned from the feminists when I, once again, got attacked by many feminists myself.

    Both worlds are part-right and part-wrong. Men and women have a physical and emotional nature which is gendered; and men and women also have the mind and the will that both men and women have equally. Denying either denies people the right to half a life.

    In matters where people are part-right and part-wrong, the correct solution is what I call the positive middle path. It is looking at what each side is right about and combining them while doing away with what's wrong in each. The first world is correct to say that there are natural differences between men and women. And the second world is correct to say that both men and women have the mind and the will and are in that aspect indeed equal.

    So my solution is to take this positive middle path. It is to affirm both the physical and emotional nature, which is gendered, and the mind and the will, which are not. It is to recognize the existence of both aspects in people and look for ways in which both can be constructively fulfilled. And doing this will do far more for the well-being of both men and women than anything that either side is doing by attacking people like me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018 at 5:53 AM
  2. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Your whole premise is wrong, most of our gender roles are results of socialization. We are not talking about physical strength. I would hate to stereotype like you are
     
  3. ibshambat

    ibshambat Well-Known Member

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    Well sure, but think of it this way. Why did these gender roles come about in the first place? If they are problematic, why are they there? I consider it essential to answer these kinds of questions before figuring out how to deal with such things.
     
  4. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    The socialization starts as soon as they walk. When baby girls fall, we pick them up. When boys fall we encourage them to be a “big. Boy” we give girls baby dolls, but take them away from little boys and give them killing dolls. We tell boys that they are acting like a girl and that is the worst insult and that is internalized. We read books where the heroes are boys and the girls are rescued. We encourage boys to take the initiative and we encourage girls to be passive. Here is the piece that you might enjoy about gender roles that I do with my class...enjoy!

    Sexism and the Power of Language

    I am going to talk to you about history and life. I am going to make some changes in the language. We have all been taught that the word man means woman as well and we use the word "he" when we mean she as well. I am going to use the word "woman" and "she" generically, meaning it will not apply to a specific gender. I have also included roots of sex roles. See if you can find them.

    The story will start with the beginning of womankind. According to the Bible when God created us She rested after 7 days. She created Eve and Adam and if you believe the Bible we are all their descendants. Throughout the history of woman, there have been debates about where woman originated. Many believe we evolved with a scientific explanation and not from a God. A famous man scientist Darwin, gave us many theories in his attempt to prove this.

    Throughout our history there were many wars. It was awful to see so many innocent men and children killed. But many brave women came to this country to begin a new life with all the freedoms they cherished. Think of the brave pioneers and their husbands crossing mountains and struggling with the grueling living conditions.

    After the War for Independence we created our Constitution that declared all women equal. We were able to worship as we pleased. We could go to a minister of our choice and she would deliver a sermon we were usually eager to hear. Trades were passed down from parent to child. After the child developed her skill she would practice the family trade and pass it on to her daughter and so on and so on.

    Today we have many liberties due to the hard work of our foremothers. There are many occupations open to us such as firewomen, mailwomen, doctors, nurses, and if one is really brave he can be a policewoman. Marine biology is interesting but be aware of those woman eating sharks!!!!

    Well here I am rushing into your future while you are still here at school. I know all the problems you “gals” have. You are so concerned with your looks. Petite and dainty boys prefer to be taller. Boys love to gossip and giggle. Sex becomes an issue and boys must restrain themselves as they don't want to be called sluts and 'ho’ s. A lot of women treat guys unfairly by calling them names, you know, chick, babe, fox etc when they walk down the street. I also think making kissing sounds and commenting on their body parts is not very respectful.

    I know sports are very important to you. Anna Smith tried to play baseball but they said she caught like a boy. In addition, some of the boys got into cat fights and became hysterical so the team was disbanded. It's a pity because at home when they play with their dolls they are sweet and loving. A lot of the girls get into fights too but "girls will be girls"

    One day you will be married and we all know it is the biggest day of a man’s life .He prepares for his wedding day with great enthusiasm, and looks forward to taking his wife’s name.

    Well I wish you all a good life and be aware that language is powerful and is inclusive or exclusive. I hope you will always be sensitive to gender
     
  5. ibshambat

    ibshambat Well-Known Member

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    That was amusing.
    I think that you misinterpreted what I asked. I did not ask how socialization takes place, I understand how socialization takes place. The question I ask is why did these gender roles get invented at all? When you want to change something, it makes every bit of sense to find out why it is there. Sometimes the answers would surprise you.
     
  6. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    The answer is obvious to me. Gender roles have been perpetuated by men for centuries. Women had little voice. Women are seen as less and that is why males don’t want to go i to to female dominated professions and why the worst insult you can give to a man is that he acts like a woman
    Most of the attitudes toward gender roles were heightened by my students. I have them ask how their lives would be different if they were the opposite gender. The boys said things like, “I would be able to share my secrets with the friend“ I would be able to show my soft side“. We raise boys to be tough
     
  7. Nonsensei436

    Nonsensei436 Active Member Donor

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    Nah.

    Gender roles were established in prehistory when the most important attributes related to survival were physical. Men are physically strong and aggressive because for the overwhelming majority of our history they had to be. Women were submissive and nurturing because that's what facilitated survival.

    Blaming something for that is ridiclous. It was that way because it could be no other way. Only in the most recent eyeblink of our existence as a species has that reality changed.

    Gender equality advocates all share one defining trait: impatience. They want aspects of humanity that have been with us for hundreds of thousands of years to be discarded within the span of a century and a half.
     
  8. ibshambat

    ibshambat Well-Known Member

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    I actually do not think that this is true. There were many women among early Christians for example. Regarding men being required to be tough, that is correct. As the shortest and weakest kid in class I did not like that idea either; however now I am in a better shape than most men my age. I do not know if telling a man that he acts like a woman is an insult, but it is most certainly an insult to tell a boy that he acts like a girl. Some of that should be changed, and I agree with a lot of what you are doing.
     
  9. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Oh please the worst insult you hear is he throws like a girl or he acts like a girl. I taught middle school and the worst thing a boy kid here is that he is like a girl
     
  10. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Yes we do....same with slavery and segregation. We have been Impatient for spans of centuries. Consciousness raising is very fast and once your consciousness is raised there is no going back. Obviously you have not had that experience but I have and so have millions and millions of women in this country and now all over the world
     
  11. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I think you might enjoy these. I have written these over the years and what is neat is that some of them are not relevant anymore I am sure you will disagree with a lot.
    Many of them were published in a woman’s magazine years ago
    PONDER THESE ///////////////////////


    ..........WHY do good manners require males to treat women as less able and females to have to behave less capable than they are? Why can't everyone hold the door for the person behind him/her regardless of gender?

    .

    .........WHY do women's sizes all assume that all females have the same arm and leg lengths? What on a woman's body is a "12"?


    ..........WHY do men laugh and women giggle? Why do men talk and women gab? Doesn't it trivialize our joy and our conversations?



    ...........WHY when we read about deaths during war are "women and children lumped as one? Aren't the deaths of the men of importance? Or does the image of helpless children AND WOMEN conjure up an image of women and children as one?


    ..........Why is a promiscuous man called a "Ladies' Man”? Why isn't his female counterpart a "Gentlemen's Lady"? Why is she called a slut?


    ..........WHY do some men get upset at the mention of Affirmative Action? I didn't hear them complaining when schools only allowed males, or when some city colleges had lower standards for males than for females? Wasn't that a form of affirmative action?


    …….WHY are female students called co-eds? What are the males? THE students?


    ......WHY is a man who has a strong wife called hen-pecked? What is his female counter-part called? (....normal?)


    ......WHY is a man who stays home and raises his child called "Mr.Mom"? Why not Mr. Dad? Do we call working mothers "Mrs. Dad?"


    .....WHY are men short and women petite or dainty?


    ..........WHY will a man tell sexist jokes to a women and expect her to laugh with him, but wouldn't dare tell a racist joke in front of a black person?

    .

    ..........WHY are women told they are too emotional? Ever go to a hockey game?


    ...........WHY do men get so insulted if they are told they are acting "like a woman” while at the same time they are telling women they are so valued.


    ........WHY do we smile at a "Daddy's girl" but make fun of a "Mama's boy"?


    ......WHY are women referred to as chicks, bitches, foxes, old crows, ******* etc. What is being said about women's humanness?


    .......WHY are inanimate things called "she" rather than "it"?


    .........WHY is the word bitch used so often to describe women in every area? "Rich bitch, stuck up bitch, bitchy . There isn't a word for men that encompasses as many areas. Listen to how many instances you hear women defined as bitches, and they don’t even bleep the word on TV.


    ...........WHY when a woman admires something about another woman is she often perceived as jealous? Why is the recipient of this admiration considered conceited?


    .........Why are men tough and women feisty?


    ......WHY do women take part in trying to rid themselves of all body hair? Only little girls have no body hair. Hmmmm.


    .....WHY is baseball considered the National Pastime? Whose pastime? Most of my friends would rather be doing other things.


    ......WHY do we say women who are sexually active are easy? I think guys are much "easier" to get sex from.


    .…WHY do we call soap operas “trash TV” and yet show respect for boxing, hockey and other violent sports? Who defines what “trash” is?


    .......Why are negative traits of behavior such as catty, frivolous, silly, promiscuous, and hysterical feminized? Doesn't this permit men to deny having these traits, even while engaging in these behaviors?


    ...........WHY are we told the word man means both genders? Didn't the constitution say all men are created equal? Why weren’t women allowed to vote? Didn’t it really mean males?



    .......... Have you ever wondered if the word feminine is really a code word for repressed? WHY are so many fun things not "ladylike" or feminine.?


    ..........WHY is it assumed that if a woman is alone with a man at 3:00 A.M. she wants to have sex with him? Can someone tell me at what hour women lose the right to say no ? Why is it females can stay up with a girlfriend till all hours and just enjoy the company?


    .........WHY can you can tell a "woman's job" by the amount of money it pays?


    .........WHY are women encouraged to go into the nurturing professions because it is believed they have so much patience? Ever see a man fish?


    .........WHY are women who fight for equal rights called "men haters"? I don't know many women who batter or rape their men. But statistics show many men beat and rape women. Now who really hates whom?


    ..........WHY do black women have to deal with misogyny while expected to join with males in the fight against racism? Ever hear how women are talked about in rap music?


    ........ WHY when a heterosexual man is raped, don't people accuse him of provoking it? Is HIS character on trial?


    ........WHY is vanity considered a feminine trait? By saying women are vain, it implies men are not. Ever watch a man strut around in a health club? Who said, "Vanity, thy name is woman"?


    .......WHY can we call a group of women, "You guys" and that is considered O.K.; even women do it. If a group of men were referred to as "gals", it would be considered offensive. What does this say about what men think of women and what women think of men….and themselves?


    ........WHY when a poor minority woman or an older woman is raped do we not read about it? WHY does it make headlines for weeks when a rape victim is "A Blond Nurse"? Is there a little fantasy going on here?


    ......WHY don't men understand that women are not flattered when they make kissing noises to them on the street? This is the same way a dog would be called.


    ......WHY are there so few men in ballet? Is magnificent grace "unmanly"?


    ......WHY do many newspapers refer to men by their last names and women by their first? ex; Bush and Laura


    ......WHY are women's arguments or fights trivialized by describing them as "Cat Fights"?


    ......WHY do teachers too often praise boys on their abilities and girls on their looks? A little of each would be nice!


    ......WHY are most of the "regular people" who speak for diet plans female? Aren't any men overweight?


    ......WHY do women who share in sexual pleasure with male partners get labels like: slut, whore, tart, tramp, easy , loose, nympho, no good etc? Is this a way of suppressing our sexuality and perhaps even our power?


    .......WHY do women want to wear a small shoe size? What's wrong with big feet? Men seem to have no problem dealing with their shoe size.


    .......WHY would the country respect a president's brother for his competence and intelligence, yet dislike his wife for having the same qualities?


    .......WHY do so many teachers assume only one parent is responsible for a child? ex: "Have your mother sign the form" "I will call your mother"


    ........WHY is it said that women are more unhappy now that they "have it all "? Has it dawned on anyone that they are more unhappy now because they hardly have it all?


    ....WHY do people say women are more vicious than men when they fight? Is scratching and pulling hair more vicious than punching out teeth and stabbing another? Or is it that they look more vicious because they are held to a higher standard?


    ...... WHY were only women asked about their childcare arrangements when interviewed for high power political appointments? Don't men have children ...... or are they just lucky enough to have someone who will give up a career to further theirs?


    ......WHY when a woman is as bright as her husband do people say she is smarter than he? Does it devalue a man to have an intellectual equal? Hillary Clinton????

    .

    .....WHY when a woman earns more money than her husband, is there a need to apologize or justify it?

    .

    ....WHY are most voice overs in commercials male? Does a male voice make the product more credible?


    ......WHY will we give a girl "boys" toys but not let a boy play with kitchen sets and loving dolls? I have heard parents say they don't want their sons to "turn gay". Why wouldn't they be afraid of a girl playing with a truck becoming a lesbian? Is it we really don’t respect femininity?


    .......WHY do the Dallas Cheerleaders get paid so little? Do they even get minimum wage? Can they take their business elsewhere?


    ......WHY when couples go to dancing are the women half-naked while the guys are fully clothed and comfortably so?


    ......WHY are women valued for what they look like and men for what they are?


    ......WHY are most volunteers women? Is a man's time worth too much?



    ......WHY do men accuse women of being lousy drivers? If that's the case why do we pay lower insurance premiums?


    ......WHY do we give a child his/her father's surname? Isn't it more logical to take the mother's name as there cannot be a question of maternity?


    ......WHY is so much money spent on research for men's illnesses and so little on women's? Is women's health so unimportant?


    ......WHY are people surprised that scantily clad women appear on the cover of Sports Illustrated? Women ARE sport. They are hunted and men try to "score" with them or "get to first base" etc.


    ......WHY when a journalist writes about a women does s/he describe her clothing in detail? I seldom read if a mans suit is wool or double breasted or note that he wore it before.


    ......WHY do people say Hillary Clinton was hiding behind her husbands pants? Wasn't he hiding behind his gender? His race? Did they really believe she could announce her candidacy? (outdated <G>)


    .......WHY does a bride spend a fortune on a dress she hopes to wear once, while the groom rents his tux? Is this only HER biggest day?


    ......WHY will women put in fake breast implants so they can be "real" women?


    ......WHY do we have to qualify a profession with "woman" lawyer, "lady" doctor etc? Interesting we don't need the qualifiers to describe a nurse or kindergarten teacher.


    .......WHY is a woman perceived as an awful person when she surrenders custody of her child? Fathers surrender it all the time and no one blames them for not fighting.


    .......WHY do women thank their husbands for "helping " in the home? Aren't the men doing their share?


    .......Why when men do men say they “baby-sit" their children? Isn't that done for someone else’s children?


    .......Why are there so many self-help books geared toward women?


    ......WHY are the female models who "cover their gray hair" usually around 30? The male models seem to be the appropriate age.


    ......WHY do we try to keep women in their place by calling it "tradition"? With any other minority group it is called discrimination.


    .......WHY do we add ette to describe a female? The literal meaning is diminutive or imitation. Leatherette? Usherette? Majorette?


    .......WHY when both partners are capable of driving do we see males behind the wheel? Does this have anything to do with control?


    ......WHY are cats "she"? Sneaky? Catty?


    ......WHY do we call God "He" if it is just a spirit?


    ......WHY are mothers in law perceived as meddling, nosy caricatures? What about fathers in laws?


    ......WHY when people are not sure of a baby's gender are they comfortable giving something blue or green but NEVER pink?


    .......WHY can we call a woman handsome but not call a man pretty?


    ......WHY does the word feminist cause women to shun the label? Who started the adjectives strident, militant , hysterical , bra burning etc? A feminist merely wants equal rights. Aren't we all feminists? Divide and conquer!


    .......WHY do we glorify and glamorize male drinking while deploring it in women?


    ......WHY do we have bag ladies but not bag gentlemen?


    …..WHY do we get outraged when the mom on Welfare chooses to stay home with her children, while we laud the middle-class woman who does the same? Why do we criticize the mother who like her spouse, enjoys a fulfilling career?


    ……WHY do we say, “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”? How do men act when scorned?


    ……WHY can we emasculate a man, but not effeminate a woman?


    ……WHY when a deserving woman gets a high positioned job, do people say it was because they needed a woman? Are Albright ,Rice and Clinton not deserving women to be Secretary of State?


    ……WHY would we keep men in the military who cannot resist the temptation of sexually harassing a subordinate woman? If they are that weak, can we trust them with our nation’s secrets?



    .........Why when men assume little responsibility for their elderly parents do people justify it by saying, “Sons have a hard time dealing with aging parents." Do women have an easy time? Or is it that men don't have to be bothered and let their sisters do all the work.


    ........WHY do they search all over the world for young boys with high voices for a boy's choir when they have a choice of more than half the population who have those beautiful high voices?...and theirs don't change!!!


    ..........WHY when a black woman straightens or colors her hair is she accused of trying to be white? If a white woman makes her hair blond is she trying to be Scandinavian?


    ….Why do we call women by men’s names (Bobbi, Glen, Terri, Mickey, Gerri etc) but laugh at men with women’s names?


    \....Why do teachers automatically say, “ I am calling your mother?” Don’t dads love their kids?


    …..Why do we say a woman has a man wrapped around her finger when she gets what she wants? Doesn’t it sound like she is casting a spell on the innocent man who can’t control her?


    ----Why is it a compliment for a woman to be told she “has balls”. Does having scrotum somehow imply that only men are strong? Aren't balls the most vulnerable part of a man?


    ---- Why do they say “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” How many men have killed their “cheating” wives ?


    ...Why are women referred to as drama queens, but yet men who act the same way aren't called drama kings?
     
  12. Nonsensei436

    Nonsensei436 Active Member Donor

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    No matter how enlightened you believe yourself to be, social progress as a species absolutely will not move one tiny fraction faster.

    Whenever you try to force it there is always a huge backlash that erases everything gained and sets us back at exactly the point we would have been at anyway.
     
  13. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Is that why women are now half of med and law schools? Is that why women are getting equal pay for equal work? Is that why women who are married can get their own credit cards? Is that why women can have reproductive freedom? Is that why we have women on the Supreme Court? Is that why women can now go to West Point and Harvard. All these things happened within a few years when women’s consciousness was raised along with men and your backlash did t change a thing. You just had to share the pie That you enjoyed for generations.
    We moved fast as hell and if you believe that a huge backlash will turn things around, you’re in denial. I am the second wave feminist and I heard the same bullshit rhetoric. “Oh yes there’s going to be a backlash, just act like a lady and things will happen” Well behaved women don’t make history
     
  14. Nonsensei436

    Nonsensei436 Active Member Donor

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    What you don't seem to understand, or are unwilling to understand, is that your movement and the changes it wrought were not the result of a few years of effort. They were the natural outcome of the progress of the human race. If we still had to hunt wild animals and huddle around campfires then your movement could never have happened. Its only because of the natural advancement of the human race that the possibility of genuine gender equality could even be contemplated.

    You seem extremely invested in the concept that you and your fellow feminists summoned a future that otherwise would never have come to pass using nothing but your indomitable willpower. The arrogance of that stance doesn't really bother me, but the incorrectness of it does. Your brand of indefatigable self confidence can actually do harm to society. Impatient progressives were responsible for Trump. You scoffed at the idea of backlash, but its real and Trump is just the latest example. Progress is happening, but its jerky and damaging when it doesn't have to be because hyper progressives don't have a brake pedal or any sense of anything being important beyond whatever progressive cause they have chosen to champion.

    You referred to yourself as enlightened, and maybe you are. But only about one very specific group of issues. Everything else you couldn't give less of a **** about.
     
  15. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    Why is that? Did the men wake up one day and decide this is how it's gonna be?
     
  16. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I guess you don’t realize that what couldn’t accomplished in 200 years happened within 20 years. Perhaps using your logic I will say we just sped up the natural outcome of progress. Does that sound better to you?
    I have to laugh at that “backlash” argument which I have heard all through our struggles. Meantime as i said before my daughter can go to Harvard, women are seen as newscasters and CEOs and lawyers and doctors and senators etc Married women can now get their own credit cards, women have reproductive freedom etc. i’m sure it all would have happened without a movement of feminist men and women who believed in equality but perhaps in another hundred years, but we were just impatient. The nerve of us
    I didn’t realize you knew me personally to say that I only care about one specific group of issues. I guess it’s just a little dig that you think is appropriate. But just for the record I care deeply about many things like the environment, education, and poverty. I guess I can make the same assumption and say that you don’t give a damn about anything but backlash against women’s progress
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018 at 3:05 PM
  17. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Might made right! Actually women woke up one day and said, “I don’t like my subservient role” and now look! We women are lucky we have choices. We could assume the role of homemaker or we could assume the role of CEO
     
  18. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    so genders differ?
     
  19. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    Duh! Of course they’re different. Whoever said they’re not? What does different have to do with equality? Is a morbidly obese man the same as an anNFL player.
    Two nickels are equal to $.10. But a nickel and a dime or different
     
  20. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    Then they should have different roles
     

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