How has being a Christian made you a better person?

Describe how the atheist world view is bleak and hopeless, please.

 

Exactly what traits are you referring to?
What, in all of what I've said thus far, leads you to believe that I am rejecting the very faith here I am defending against your attacks?
You're not making any sense.

 

You are making unwarranted assumptions about things you have no way of knowing. This is not the first time.

Unless you are pulling things out of your butt for the sake of being argumentative, try to show a little interest in the subject itself rather than focus so much effort in seeing how insulting you can be.

 

I'm sorry you can't follow a simple argument.
You don't exhibit the Fruits of the Spirit.
Either you are rejecting the faith or the faith is rejecting you.
Why can't you follow this? Seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

It's ridiculous to say that "Christians" have no sense of morality and ethics.

There are no doubt a great many examples of people who on the surface present themselves as "Christian", who try to give that impression to others by making a show of it. They may wear ornaments like crucifixes, or bracelets, ball caps, T-shirts with "Christian icons" or "sayings" on them. They may put bumper stickers on their cars that make references to some point of doctrine which is peculiar to their preferred denomination.
I have known them to put posters in their rooms or offices to publicize their "religiosity".

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with this kind of "advertising" per say. But I am saying that they are no guarantee that the person who is "puttin' on the style'" lives by them. The symbols themselves cannot serve as accurate yardsticks as to how well a person is able to adhere to the actually spirit they are intended to symbolize.

There are many also who make a big show of their "charity" by traveling to foreign lands to "save" the "ignorant" natives but who wouldn't lift a hand to help to their next door neighbor. They prefer the attention they get for playing a role the same way politicians project themselves when they have press available spread the image around, more than any self satisfaction they may derive from having "given their alms in secret". This attitude betrays a lack of faith in the idea that the God who sees people "in secret" is also a rewarder of those who do good "in secret".

None of those outward shows of "faith" may make any actual difference in the way in which they think and feel deep down in the part of themselves where it is supposed to really count ie the part which only God can appreciate or accurately judge.

But if you've ever read the New Testament and paid attention, you will discover that none of this is new and the problem was addressed way back when the book was penned.

God knows the difference between the "outward appearance" of a man and his true inner nature.
Even if we succeed in conning others into believing that we are something more than we are, the God who sees and knows all isn't fooled by our charades.

What is really hard is getting a hold of oneself and making those transformations for the better for the sake of oneself and not simply for the purpose of winning the approval of others. That's not to say there is anything wrong with wanting others to think well of them, only that the genuine article would be vastly superior to an artificially contrived one, no matter how effective it might be in "getting the job done".

I haven't said much of anything directly on this subject yet concerning my own personal estimations of myself, so it is unfair of you to assume you know those things with no more than I have given you to go on.

Some might call this premature judgement , or "jumping to conclusions".

Where people can go wrong projecting their preconceived concepts onto other people, they can do this also when they are reading small excerpts of the Old Testament out of context and without a knowledge of the cultures, circumstances, and conditions which were prevalent at the time in which they occurred. These factors cannot be discounted or ignored if one is going to make a full assessment of them.

Ironically, people who promote the concepts of "moral relativism" are especially prone to make these mistakes with respect to God's dealings with peoples of ancient times and cultures. They, of all people, ought to be those who should not allow themselves to be guilty of this mistake. Yet they frequently do.
By doing this, they become as guilty of violating their own precepts as much as any Christian who fails to live up to his!

 

Some make a show of their Christianity on the internet but their interatctions with others betrays what really lies beneath.
Can't agree with you more.

 

At the moment of writing this I AM in the HERE and NOW, ..........JUST AS YOU ARE.

So for the time being that puts us on equal footing as far as what we are doing to make the world a better place.

There is a reason why I post on political web sites, and it isn't only because I like making mince meat out of my antagonistic opponents either!

I believe that any parent who cares about their children's futures ought to do what they are able to secure a bright future for them, not only in the here and now, but in the here ever after as well.
Considering the difference in time spans between the two, I'll leave it to you to decide which is more important.

Just as much as giving consideration to the welfare of children once they have been brought into the world, I am of the mind that a person should give consideration to the types of explanations which an inquisitive child might expect as to the PURPOSE of this existence and the kind of advice they might need as to how to cope with life AS IT IS, and NOT according to some Marxist or New Age pipe dream, which is about all they can expect from an atheistic philosophy.

So what will you say to this child once they are able to ask you things like "Why am I here?"
"What is the purpose or meaning of life?"
"Where do I come from?"
"What happens when I die?"
"Where do I go?"
"Why is there so much bad in this world?"
"Why is a man born to suffer and die?"
"Where did the universe come from?"

Or perhaps worse:

"I am so miserable in this life because of the way people are, the way they treat me, and my circumstances, bad luck, and misfortune!"
"WHY DID YOU BRING ME INTO THIS MESS?"

"Since there is no "GOD" to blame my miserable existence on, and since the world is nothing but one great exercise in futility, since all the work we do in this world is made ABSURD by certain death at the end of it all, and since YOU HAVE NO EXPLANATIONS FOR ANY OF IT, and MUCH LESS are able to OFFER any HOPE of escape other than ultimate oblivion, and since you cannot say where the universe came from or explain it's purpose, and since THERE IS NO "EVIL GOD" to blame it all on,
I'LL JUST BLAME YOU INSTEAD, since it is an irrefutable fact that YOU are the reason I am here in it and it was YOUR ACTIONS alone that were responsible for my ABSURD, FUTILE, and MEANINGLESS existence, which consists mostly of an endless series of aggravations, aches, pains, drudgery, sickness, empty promises , disappointments, and broken dreams, punctuated only by the verbal and physical assaults of "my fellow man" who seem determined to make my life more miserable by the day is not seeking outright to kill me!"


An atheist has no reasonable explanation to any of these questions.

There is no one who is more responsible for his own child's existence or welfare than himself.
He has elected to bring a life into a world in which the only exit is certain death and whose existence is uncertain at best.
Disease, and pain are almost guaranteed when one comes into this world.
The dangers are undeniable and often inescapable.
Man's humanity to man is a never ending FACT which in all probability will NEVER be resolved by man himself.

Selfishness, greed, vanity, envy, spite, and hate are all qualities which are common to every culture, race, and time known to man. There is no where on the earth to seek refuge from their effects short of becoming a hermit. And even then, a person is left with HIMSELF. Need I elaborate on the problems which attend THAT?



Talk about a "gilded cloud".

Any one who is willing to make an honest assessment of this life and yet is either unable to see these things or willing to admit them is the one who is living on a "gilded cloud". That's in sharp contrast to a Christian who is a stark REALIST.

The atheist answer to all these problems would seem to be that one only need to eradicate Christianity from the earth and see to it that "the children" never have to encounter one on his inexorable journey to the grave, then all will be well. The only difference between the atheists attitude and the Jew proper is that one seeks to eliminate them whereas the other seeks to harness their energy as productive servants.

Good luck in assembling all these atheists and scoffers into one place , where you all may convene to decide how you are going to turn the big bad world into the "Good Ship Lollypop".
I'm sure that among all those "good" folks who don't believe that mercy, goodness, or even JUSTICE are anything more than ill conceived man made contrivances, and believe that " You only goes around once in this life ", they therefore must "GRAB ALL THE GUSTO THEY CAN GET", ...............that among this motley crew you will find an abundance of people who having faith in the absurdity of existence also have a generous supply of charity and good will to offer you and yours.

 

Who's making a show?
I'm telling it to you straight.
And look who's throwing stones now!

 

Yes I can tell by the way you run YOUR MOUTH, "CRANK", that you are indeed a "man of action".

That's why you should put your money on the charity of Christian institutions rather than giving it to the beer, liquor, porn, and movie industries.
Because as far as "giving alms to the poor" goes, Christians beat the atheists hands down.

 

And what are you?

I thought you didn't believe in God.

God by definition IS PERFECT. Anything less will not suffice.

Who said that Mao was anything less than a mass murderer? Certainly not me!

 

It is certain that I do NOT need YOUR forgiveness.
You accuse me of being terrified of dying. On what grounds?
That I would prefer eternal life?

Are you insinuating that it would be better to go into oblivion?

I would agree with you if the only other alternative would be hell.

But for me it is not.
You can do as you please, inasmuch as you have the power.

But if I was looking for some means to escape, I would no more come to you than I would for solace to an aching conscience.

I gather either you do not have one or you have never done anything that should disturb it.
That's what happen when a thing lies dormant for so long.

You don't use it, you lose it.

Joe Cocker I believe it was that sang that.
I don't know why. Maybe you would like to critique the lyrics for us. I would be interested to hear what you have to say about them.

I will agree with you that the trials and tribulations of this life do not serve as evidence for the existence of God.

Indeed I would like to be made better in a lot of ways. But I have learned to be reasonably content with what I have.

I take it that either you are content with being your perfect self and have more than you want or need, so you never do or say anything the least bit unethical or immoral to obtain them.

That's very good. You need to teach these skills to the rest of the world because from the looks of it there are a great many people who could stand a lesson in civility and consideration of others. Not all of them are "Christian" by the way.

 

Who named you?
Identifying with this, are you?
Telling it to you straight also.
Embrace the Fruits if you embrace the faith.

 

You make absurd assumptions and attribute them to me.
I have regrets, pain, all the rest that everyone has.
I have no fantasy that there is any solution to any of it other than what I bring to it.
My need does not invent the solution.
I have not suggested anywhere that you should come to me for solutions. I am not anyone's savior, with the possible exception of being my own. That is unlikely. We fail, we hurt, we regret and we live with it.
We die. Wanting eternal life, like you obviously desperately do, doesn't invent the means to do so.

 

Good for you! Too bad we can't all be as lucky as you! What reason could I possibly have to doubt your word seeing that you place so much faith in mine.

As you can see, I am trying to field assaults from three or more at the same time. With all these objections being hurled at once,there are times in which I mix the content of my replies to accommodate all of them as though they were all being directed at me with the singular purpose of trying to destroy my argument or "make me look bad".

So forgive me if I occasionally give a response which is directed roughly at the lot of you since there doesn't seem to be much difference in your intent.

That being said you can read the portions of my personal testimony which deal with the particulars of the role my history played in arriving at my present state.

If you are also following the rebuffs of your atheist and/or allies, you will see that my personal experiences are of little or no interest to them. Therefore revealing more of these aspects of my personal experience will only serve as an invitation to those who would seek to add to those burdens. This would serve no useful purpose and there is no reason why I should give them the satisfaction they seek.

The most important thing here is the main topic of discussion, which as I see it is to provide those who are seeking evidence to support a rational belief in the existence of God and the hope which goes with it, with arguments of a nature which would tend to support that belief.

I only included information pertaining to my personal struggle as a means of relating to those people who may have had similar experiences or worse ones to provide them with assurance that they are not alone in that respect.
I have a suspicion that many people grow up under circumstances which are very difficult to say the least which have a negative impact on the way in which they view the world and humanity in general.
There's not much doubt that the environment a person grows up in has effects on the way he develops.

I personally believe that God takes these factors into account when he "judges" people. In law they are called "mitigating" circumstances. Even men have the sense to make allowances for circumstances which could "drive a person over the edge".
People who have suffered a lack of opportunity or who were abused emotionally or physically may not believe that anyone else could possibly understand where they are "coming from".
Indeed, I have thought the same thing. Furthermore I believe that this notion has some basis in fact because each person is unique in that there is only one of "themselves". Even if there were a thousand clones of an identical make, each one would still remain only one of a set.
At the same time, it is a mistake to thing that the thoughts that occur to us as individuals have never occurred to anyone else, simply because they occurred to ourselves before ever learning of them from outside of ourselves.

I have had many occasions where I would think of something I had never thought of and had never heard anyone else express, only to later hear the same idea being expressed by someone I had never known or heard of. This sort of coincidence of thought is bound to occur from time to time. In a way it is reassuring because when it happens it makes me feel more attached or linked to other people in the world.

When I hear them expressing things which I have thought myself, I think, "Maybe I am not so crazy (or wicked) as I supposed I was". Therefore if other people can survive and work through these things without suffering irreparable damage, then maybe I can to. They may think something like, "He went through something that sounds as bad as what I went through. So if he can make it , so can I."
Or maybe they think something like, "I feel so bad about what happened and how I may have caused this tragedy to occur. I can do nothing to undo what has been done. I don't know how I can go on and face the light of day."
People in such a state of shame or remorse may even go so far as to feel that the only thing they can do to "set the record straight" would be to destroy themselves. Or alternatively they may feel so rotten that they decide, it's no use even trying. Everything is already ruined, so I might as well go ahead and finish the job. If I am to forever doomed to be nothing but trash then 'by God" I'll make myself be the worst trash the world has ever seen. Maybe I'll even take some of these 'scumbags with me."

Can you imagine how some people might get to this state?

And can you also see how damaged emotions could lead a person to further compound their errors or make matters worse by not being able to work themselves through those painful experiences and states of mind without "exploding" or doing something totally irrational, which may even result in hurting someone besides themselves?


THIS is the reason why I alluded to those more embarrassing or humiliating episodes in my life. Some of them resulted in some very REAL GRIEF. Not just for me!
For those of you who do not know what that word means or who have never experienced it, LOOK IT UP YOUR DAMN SELVES!

I KNOW that there are some people who have "laid down with the hogs" and because of that would never even attempt to approach God in their own hearts and minds, let alone a public church service, for the simple reason that they do not feel worthy or able.

What they don't understand is that NONE of us are absolutely "worthy" in the strictest sense.

John the Baptist spoke of one who was coming whose sandals he was not worthy to unlatch.
Paul counted himself as being among the worst of sinners.
There are many other cases of this.
King David fell about as far from grace as a person could yet the scriptures described him at one time to be "after God's own heart.

So when PEOPLE in a church community who have never 'walked a mile in someone else's shoes encounter someone "from the wrong side of the tracks" they may act judgmental or even BE judgmental because they themselves have never experienced this or that thing or never been put in the same position or under the same stresses and strains which reduced this person to that level.

Those people should not let the "judgements" of "self righteous" people STAND IN THEIR WAY, or BLOCK them from seeking their own salvation, not even if some of those judgmental, self righteous people happen to be atheists or Jews!

They can not allow self pity, shame, humiliation, fear, worry, or anything else PREVENT them from TRYING to do GOD's will NOW.

They may have to suspend the judgements, attitudes, and opinions of others in order to accomplish this.
But I think it is reasonable if they do so for them moment at least if that enables them to gather the COURAGE to come to God on HIS TERMS, not those being speculated upon or DICTATED BY other MEN.

After he has obeyed the gospel and resolved himself to never eat from the slop bucket of a decadent lifestyle again, THEN he can afford to worry a little bit about what other people think of him.

I have been accused seeking the Lord because I fear death. This is NOT true. IN FACT, the EVIDENCE SPEAKS TO THE CONTRARY.
They do not know what this evidence is.

And I refuse to give these SMART a$$3s the benefit of hearing about it!

There's no such word listed in the dictionary. I understood the prefixes and suffixes. I was just being a little facetious because you put the two together. That's alright. I understood what you meant. You don't mind if I just want to give you a hard time now and then do you?

 

So we should ignore your judgmentalism, attitudes and opinions?
Good advice.
The evidence you fear death is in your own posts. You have proclaimed it yourself.

 

You're not making much sense.

As best I can tell, you don't like me and don't believe in God or the plenary word of God.

The fact that you don't like me doesn't bother me in the least.

There are certain types of people in this world, who if they DID like me, would make me pause to wonder what I was doing wrong. Those kind of people I would rather not associate with if at all possible.
"Birds of a feather" and all that you know.

I wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea.

What kinds of places do you hang out at?
Not some church I'm sure.

 

Where on earth could a person get that idea or even on this thread?

I fail to understand how the same person who willingly "accepts the idea that he's a 'piece of sh!T' also has it in his idea that he is "better than" someone else.

Can you explain this a little better?

Also why would a person who is "not as screwed up as they are" need "redemption" anyway.

We all know how you feel about yourself, how close to perfect you are and all that, so why do you need to belabor the fact to all these people you feel so much better than because they are nothing but "screwed up pieces of SH!t>?

That's some argument against the existence of God and Christianity you've got there.

I'm surprised that the international union of atheists and Secular Humanists haven't called you to debate the world's foremost theologians. It would be quite a spectacle. I'm sure that all the universities would be calling on you to give presentations and so forth.

 

Former pastor actually.
I got better.

- - - Updated - - -

There's the Christian witness we have all come to expect from you!

 

This is true. I have long contended that those who express the belief that there is no God or judgment are as equally unable to negate the truth as all the wishful thinkers are to establish it.

By beliefs are based upon years of experience and hours of study. It would be impossible for me to sum them all up in so short a space.

I would like to say in closing that you are also in error when you attribute to me some great longing for eternal life which could possibly exceed that of most people. The fact of the matter is that I come from a time in which I once desired nothing more than the peace that total oblivion had to offer.
The problem with that is, I could never for the life of me totally convince myself that things were that simple.
Every time I looked that abyss in the face I was struck by the total absurdity of it.

I can honestly say that it was nothing less than the hope of peace which death had to offer which ultimately led me to the realization that God DOES exist and that Christ WAS his representative on earth.

There is only ONE WAY......................YOUR WAY. I hope it will lead you to the rest and reassurance that I have sought so long and so hard for.

I could claim to have led a rich and rewarding life totally free of pain or care and there would be those who would find fault with that as well. Those people are able to find fault or whatever else it is they seek. They always do.

 

No doubt. I can tell by how articulate you are.

You got what you wanted didn't you? So what's your complaint?

Kiss it again if you please. This time make it long and wet.

 

A simple apology for your assumptions would have been sufficient, and more honest.

- - - Updated - - -

Shall we discuss the Fruits some more?

 

First you'd need to describe 'truth'. Then you'd need to explain how it is that theists claim to KNOW there is a god/s, whereas atheists don't claim there is none. We (most of us) conclude that there is little likelihood of god/s, which is not the same thing at all.

Most theists don't become theists AFTER years of study. They first decide they're going to believe, then they study - if they're inclined towards study at all. Many theists are not.

Meanwhile, you seem a little tooo keen on death.

 

who reads that stuff

 

I don't think you're as bad as you try to let on holston. Just remember that those times of great hardship are also times of great personal growth. As long as you take the right lesson away with you.

As for judgement Christianity claims that there is only ONE unforgivable sin. "Blasphemy of the holy spirit". But if you look up what that actually means it means not believing what Christians do ie Jesus died for your sins. Since that is the ONLY unforgivable sin it follows that there is NO judgement as you describe. NOTHING you say or do in your entire life has ANY bearing on your salvation. Only whether you say Jesus died for your sins. So Hitler goes to Heaven since he agrees. And Jews who shared their meagar crums of stale bread with one another go to Hell forever unless they convert. I realize that many Christians fail to understand that. Many would have a hard time accepting it. But that's the ONLY rule. Which makes it a pretty screwed up religion.