Hungary’s Orban: 9/11 Proved ‘Christian Civilization Is Something We Must Fight for

Yes, the second generation of "Americans" is always more reflective/representative of their environment.

 

Thanks for proving my point. Slavery had nothing to do with Christianity, but you blame everything on Christianity. Why such animosity?

There is no excuse for what the Roman Catholic church, and the Church of England (for a while) did when religion was used as a political tool. Inquisition, torture, murder in name of religion is a horrible thing. Unfortunately Islam is doing the same thing now with their religion.

 

Do you have any idea how silly you look saying things like this? It's your need to virtue signal how evil you think white people are, and double down that it's due to xtianity. It doesn't matter what the color of the xtians is, or where they came from, or even that abarahamic religions and other religions had slaves. You will patently ignore anything that is true as it gets in the way of your SJW soapboxing. This is coming from an agnostic who doesn't trust ANY religions. Don't stop just because the facts aren't going in your direction.

 

I agree we shouldn't broadbrush any religion, but we can't ignore religious fanaticism regardless of where it comes from.

That said, much of Islam needs to join at least the 20th century.

 

https://abouthungary.hu/news-in-bri...ection-and-ecological-awareness-of-hungarians


“According to MTI, the pontiff said aboard the flight from Slovakia to Vatican City that “complaints” about his one-day visit to Budapest, where he celebrated the closing mass of the 52nd Eucharistic Congress on Sunday, were based on a “misunderstanding”. The visit to Slovakia had been organized earlier, which limited his time in Hungary, he said. The pope noted he had met President János Áder for the third time on Sunday. “I promised the president to look into another visit to Hungary next year or some other year,” he said. Regarding the meeting with the president and Prime Minister Viktor Orbán, the pontiff said that the 40-minute meeting was “held in a friendly atmosphere,” and focused in part on environmental issues. “I salute Hungarians’ ecological awareness,” he said.

Pope Francis said they also discussed Hungary’s family protection measures. “While worries of a demographic winter are rising in Western Europe”, Francis said he had seen “many young couples and children” in Hungary and Slovakia. Among other topics, Francis also touched on LGBTQ rights. He said governments had a duty to “aid same-sex couples living together and protect their rights”, but said “that has nothing to do with the sacrament of marriage”. “We have to respect everyone, but please do not ask the church to deny its own truths,” he said. During the talks, Francis was handed a letter from Edith Bruck, a Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor. In that context, the pope warned that anti-Semitism was on the rise. It “is making a resurgence, it is fashionable,” he said.”

 

Hand kissing is traditional in Mediterranean countries, especially towards clergy because of the Eucharist. In the Greek Orthodox Church we always kiss the hand of our priests, especially in church. It's was also common to kiss the hand of those who have been very charitable and supportive of you. It is though embarrassing for anyone to have their hand kissed in this day and age - that is unless you're a woman.

The ones that came first were Syrian refugees and came with their families. Then came the migrants with false Syrian passports and they were all men - so they were economic migrants, not refugees. As for the Afghans, they came before the US army left so they too are economic migrants.

The Syrian families have been processed and sent on to Germany and the children without parents are remaining in Greece and going to Greek schools. This is resented by the migrants that are left behind in the crowded refugee camps - most of which were given false Syrian passports in Turkey. This is why they attacked the Syrians in the camps.

Ankara never stopped smuggling migrants to Greece because they have an agenda. Now Erdogan is threatening to send over millions of Afghans.

Our purpose in Syria was to overthrow Assad, this is why we supported the terrorists to keep the war going on. There was though a genocide of Christians, and it was ignored by Obama. I was shocked when I saw Senator McCain pose with Al Nusra terrorists after they had attacked a Christian town.

 

Except Islam has the text of the Koran and Hadiths to justify their jihad against the unbelievers. While Christians have the text of the bible to demonstrate the illegitimacy of those who kill in the name of Christianity.

 

Unfortunately what you refer to as fanaticism, is Islamic Fundamentalism. A strict, literal interpretation of the koran and hadiths.

Search on
ijtihad gates closed

For many Sunnis, they are trapped in the 10th century, destined to remain. .

 

I just sourced it did. Kind of pathetic of you to not quote that source and claim the opposite.

And slavery. Slavery was fully part of the Christian religion.

Not recalling the Islamic clergy, the equivalent of the Roman Catholic church / church of England, are supporting the idea's of torturing and murdering in the name of religion. You're just inserting some anti Muslim sentiment here full of lies.

 

Interesting it was Christian nations that abolished slavery... Muslim nations have continued right along.

 

I am not a Sunni (in fact, I am not religious and, certainly, not any that is textually based), but I would think whether the "gates of ijtihad are closed' or not is something they can decide for themselves regardless of whatever anyone else might have said many centuries ago. But talking about "ijtihad", let me give you the perspective of Iran's top (shia) clerics, both as enshrined in Iran's constitution and from their writings.
Constitution of the IR of Iran

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaʽfari_jurisprudence

 

Every abrahamic religion and many others had slaves. Are you just today learning about this? Cuz it looks a lot like you're just making things up again.

 

Everyone has a right to hold on to their religion, heritage and culture since it's part of them and what made them what they are. No one has a right to impose their own standards or faith on others whether its Islam or the stupidities of our Western liberalism.

Although I'm not fond of Poland and Hungary's intransigence, I respect them for wanting to hold on to their beliefs and standards. As for them suffering under the Ottomans and Soviets, I don't know what in the world they're talking about. Poland and Hungary were never under the Ottomans, and as for the Soviets, they were under their own communist party leaders.

As for the Ottomans, on my mother's island of Chios 60 thousand were massacred and 40 thousand were taken as slaves. In my father's area they were taxed one son - who was then told to go to Constantinople and if the child survived the trip, he was made a Janissary. To hold on to their sons, the Greeks kept their births hidden, that's why there are no baptismal records in Greece.

All the coastal towns in Italy at one time were vacated for fear of being captured by the Barbary pirates and sold into slavery. Barbarossa who was known to chew his enemies in battle, was so revered as a general by the Ottomans that they even built him a shrine outside Istanbul.

Now that's barbarity.

 

Where is legitimacy to kill in the name of Christianity found in the Bible?

 

Christianity is purely spiritual and contrasts with the other Abrahamic faiths; Islam and Judaism since it has nothing to do with this world. Actually Christ was crucified, because the Pharisees wanted a 'this world' messiah to free them from the Romans.

 

You're keeping that up, while I just posted the Pope aint like that.
They guy is also from Argentina.

And so it remains the pope humiliated Orban on his Christian values to first telling him off, and than walking out with no handshake. How important one

Pff... the idea is that it's an exceptionally harsh thing to do... to cross the sea between Turkey and Greece, and sleep under the open sky for weeks etc. Women don't like to be raped. All you got going is sexist nonsense.

Turkey isn't doing that. Syrians are just fleeing from that place, since they took in +2 million more refugees than Germany who already was wondering how to cope with 1 million of them. Turkey, being far more poor than Germany, having far less resources to accommodate that many refugees.

There was hope it would go like that. But it never was the plan. Russia wouldn't allow it.
And it's sad to see you're still fooled by that fake news about McCain.

 

Mohamed believed, or was made to believe that his culture and standards are perfection in the eyes of God. It also means that he considers himself and what he is perfection. It's this pride that stagnated Islam.

Of course when they look at the current stupidities in the West, it only enforces their belief in the perfection of Mohamed's 8th century Arab culture.

​

I like to cheat to get my way
for it's a game we like to play
towards infidels like you.

Now don't get mad and be alarmed
for we don't really mean to harm.
It's just that you have got to know,
Islam's the only way to go - Jeannette

​

 

none the less... slavery was part of the Christian religion. Converting non believers was also a fundamentally part of Christian religion. And they did not convert people in a peaceful way. Muslim nations mostly have never done so. Hence there were still old Christian sects in Iraq until ISIS showed up. There were also a heck of a lot of Jews in Arab nations until Israel showed up with it's Jews having an idea that all the lands belong to them. Jews who fled Christian Europe. The pilgrims themselves, much adored in US culture, were persecuted and fled the UK. That is what it means to live under Christian rule, where Orban drags in Ottoman rule as if it all was so bad while it wasn't at all.

 

It was rather ok under Ottoman rule, where religious persecution did not happen in the way it happened under Christian rule. Jews fled from Christian Europe towards the Ottomans. The Pilgrim fathers fled Europe to a new land. And this is talking about fellow Europeans who fled from other fellow Europeans. This does paint the grim picture how utterly fanatically insane they behaved to non white non Christians elsewhere in the world.... as shown with pictures on page 1 / post 12.

All you got is some romantic view how it was under Christian viewpoint, and some biased viewpoint how it was under Christian rule.

You mean, it was going totally fine for 300 years. There was no religious persecution, and in facts European Jews fled to the island. The island totally economically flourished and everybody was able to profit due to low taxations. And it all changed when the Greeks starting with attacking the Turks, and lost. And in them days, it was perfectly legit for people to have slaves and make them work in the fields in the US.

As for your idea of taxing a child... those children were brought up to the elites in the Ottoman empire and was only a thing for the high nobility. They acquired a fast track up in the social economic ladder. Muslims themselves illegally tried to get their children in that lavish program.

It's totally not comparable how it was under thug Christian rule. The whole of Africa is full of genocidal policies where some sort of ability to prosper was totally out of the question. And such policies were still in place after WWII.

Barbarossa is like 600 years ago. I might as well drag in the inquisition that followed when Christians took Spain. Spain that totally flourished with opportunities for Jews and Christians. The Christians ended that, by massacring everybody who wasn't Catholic enough.

YOU talk about "No one has a right to impose their own standards or faith". There was no imposing a thing in the Ottoman empire, as Orban is suggesting. It did happen fanatically under thug Christian rule. That is their legacy.

Your entire argument of "No one has a right to impose their own standards or faith"... where is it in your examples? Are you aware that thug Christian nations went to Afghanistan to nation build and impose THEIR standards on the Afghan people for 20 years.... and lost!! You're so full of accusing what Muslims are supposately doing, that your not able to see that it's the Christians who do this.

 

Strange you think you can speak more wisely about Hungary’s experience under Ottoman domination than the President of Hungary can. How exactly are you an expert on Hungarian history?

 

Was primarily from the writings of Imam Ghazali. Believing in the perfection of the 4 main schools of Islamic thought. Anything all 4 schools of thought agreed upon in the 10th century, was considered no longer subject to debate.

For instance an Egyptian professor was tried as being an apostate. In the 1990s Nasr Hamid Abu Zayd writings he questioned the legitimacy of owning slave girls and taxes imposed on non muslims in modern society. All 4 schools in the 10th century had agreed on both of these matters, and so was no longer subject to debate. His questioning of the legitimacy of owning slaves and taxes for non muslims made him an apostate. They dissolved his marriage because a Muslim woman couldnt be married to him as a non muslim. Something also agreed to by all 4 schools in the 10th century

 

My romantic view is towards the United States which was founded on Christianity and personal freedom. It was the America, America of Elia Kazan and the America of the Statue of Liberty's: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”

This was also the America that used its wealth for schools, orphanages and hospitals all over the third world, and the America that all nations looked on for justice. This doesn't mean it was perfect since nations consist of individuals and some of their actions were barbaric - as an example the great Scottish benefactor Carnegie who had his workers working 12 hours a day in smog filled Pittsburgh, and gave them one day off a year; the 4th of July.

But in contrast to every nation that had ever existed up until that time, we were the most humane and had more individual rights of any nation.

As for the Ottomans and its successor Attaturk, all I can say is read the book by Horton: "The Blight of Asia", who was the American Council in Smyrna (Izmir). He was there and saw the killings of Armenians, the fires set by the Turkish soldiers that drove the Greeks to the sea, etc., etc.

To give credibility to what he wrote, he only took testimonies from Americans and foreigners that lived and worked in Turkey. All these testimonies are in our Library of Congress in Washington. When Britain told the Greek soldiers to take over Smyrna/Izmir before the Italians grabbed it, they acted very humane to the Turks living there. When Horton asked the Turks why they didn't want the Greeks in control, they said it was because they were their former slaves.

www.THE BLIGHT OF ASIA (hri.org)

Oh so that's what the Turks are now saying, that the Greeks weren't being taxed one of their sons. I guess the Serbs weren't taxed a son either? The Janisarries were not allowed to marry and never went above being a soldier or being killed, so what nobility would want that for their son? Next you'll be telling me that they aren't calling the Greek islands their Blue Homeland, and threatening and claiming everything?

I guess the massacre of 60 thousand on the island of Chios and the 40 thousand taken into slavery isn't true either. Then why is a painting of the massacre by Delacroix hanging in the Louvre? I recall a Turkish writer in Hurriyet say that after attending a foreign school he realized that Turkey teaches fairytales.

You're forgetting that the Arab Muslims were killing Black Muslims not too many years ago in Africa, or that killing between tribes was commonplace before the Europeans came. You're also forgetting that it was the Arab merchants who were selling the Black slaves to the Americas. The others slaves they made Eunuchs', and if the boys were lucky and survived the process, they ended up in the Ottoman harems.

I read that when the Circassians in the 19th century were invited into Turkey to escape the war in Russia, that they became so cheap that the Turks rid themselves of their black slaves. Yet the Circassians were Muslims and supposedly Muslims were not supposed to be sold as slaves.

Look, no one is saying that Europeans were angels, but brutality was rarely if ever state policy. It was usually done by individuals, while in the Ottoman Empire and later with Attaturk, it was always state policy. The orders were given from above.

Actually only 2 thousand people were killed during the Inquisition in Spain, and the Church was not the one that sentenced them. The Church only declared them as being guilty of heresy since they passed themselves off as Christians but had alien ideas. It was Spain that passed the death sentence on them since they considered heresy a threat to their nation..

Oh so then 'dhimmitude' didn't exist and all those Christians in the Near and Middle East embraced Islam willingly? Then why does Turkey call itself the sword of Islam if it wasn't imposed on Christians?

As for Afghanistan, it's not Christianity that was being imposed on them, it's the anti Christian liberal insanity - and I condemn it as much as I condemn impositions by Islam - so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

Muslim men were allowed to marry Christians as long as the children became Muslims. Women though were not allowed to marry Christian men. I assume it was because the children were raised in the faith of the father.

I recall a few years back an Egyptian Imam saying that if Mohamed did not make conversion to another faith a capital crime, that Islam would have ceased to exist. What surprised me was that he said it with pride, rather than shame.

This doesn't mean I condemn Muslims, since Christianity has to do with a person's heart. I recall reading that a crippled knight in the Holy Land was being carried around by a kind hearted Muslim. What surprises me with the Turks though is how easily they can be manipulated with lies, so that their intense kindness can quickly turn to cruelty. I think it's because they're very obedient to authority.

 

So you're using a romantic viewpoint of the US how it is now, and compare it to the Ottoman empire from back in the day.
While I compare the thug Christian colonial rule since Orban dragged in the Ottoman empire, which was all in the same time period.
You're approach is just utterly dishonest.

Not only the time period thing, but you're just looking the other way when a 4 star US general tells in the US that Iraq has WMD, and under them lies the US went to war in Iraq and got the blood on their hands of 100,000 people. America, who doesn't want people (Latin Americans / Muslims) from a different culture in their borders, but go nation building at gun point (inserting their culture) in Afghanistan for 20 years,.. and subsequently got the blood on their hands of 100,000 who died for that US goal that nobody asked for. Americans... who cry their eyes out about 3,000 people who died at 9/11, but don't give a rats ass they got the death of 100,000's of people on their conscious because of their lies and cultural policies. No orphanage is able to correct that. It's like hearing Stalin was a nice guy since he treated his dogs well.

There is nothing humane about the US who tortured people well over a 100 times with no trial in sight. The humane thing and rights are only for their own. They do not grant those to others. Lets be clear that the US claimed they killed a terrorist on the last day in Afghanistan and claimed there were secondary explosions as prove. The US flat out lied. They killed an aid worker and 6 of his children, 10 innocent people in total died. There were no secondary explosions either. Nobody is being held accountable for that murder at all. There won't be a trial about it at all. They never did in the past. The US murders people with impunity and doesn't give a rats ass about it when they are 3rd world Muslims. ideas about rights and humanity only show up when you do that to them.

I already commented that this "taxation" was only for the view high ranking nobles. And their kids were given an exceptionally well education and high status and great jobs to look forward to the envy of your average Turk. In comparison I posted pictures how Christians hacked of limbs if they failed to work hard enough. You're not scoring any points.

I posted pictures on page 1 how Christians dealt with such things. They committed wide scale genocide through an entire country, and your complaining about 1 island.
You're not scoring any points.

Nothing compares to the Christian western slave trade. They are on a league of their own. And the west pretty much enslaved about the entire non western world under an utterly brutally violent regime. With that it's also on a league of their own. It's like, you're complaining it is dripping somewhere, while behind you there is a tsunami.

It was state policy to brutally oppress about the entire non western world.

People fled the violent oppressive Christian nations into the kind hands of the Ottoman empire. And here we got Orban and you claiming the Ottoman empire was bad compared to their Christian values. Total joke.

They were given the option to pay that taxation OR enter the army. Muslims did not have that option and had to go in the army.
All this is, is you dragging in a anti Muslim trope. tss tss

Ah. So when a Christian nation does something, but it's not religious... than it's not fair to mention.
But when a Muslim nation does something, like massacring on an island / taxing a kid,... even though it's not Islamic, it remains fair to mention it.

You're just again being dishonest.

 

Islamic law doesnt permit a muslim woman to marry any non Muslim. Not just Christians.