I believe we now have conclusive proof that Trump caused 1/6

I just don't understand how anyone you believe loves the country could do the despicable things he's done causing lasting damage in such a self-serving way. Trying to steal the election being the most egregious but there are many others. Like undermining faith in our elections.

 

Did you not read my caveat? IANAL consult a lawyer ?

Very un fascist of me to be courteous.

 

so use whatever Search engine you want.

 

In your not so humble opinion.

 

Your repeated attempts to divert the focus from the Trump goon attack on Congress is painfully blatant.

If you wish to discuss such disparate matters as those you evoke, you should initiate threads addressing them.

Oh, yeah!
Well, whaddabout...?"​

 

Yep, some of the gullible people genuinely believed to every word of our Stable Genius, that Mexico paid for wall, that the coronavirus miraculously will disappear in April, that the coronavirus is a Democrats hoax and there was an election fraud. Gullibility is not a crime, fighting with police and breaking into the Capitol is a crime, does not matter in what you believe.

 

You may be upset by Congresswoman Cheney and others seeking sworn testimony from those most intimately involved in the communication concerning the trump goon attack on Congress, but such disclosure serves the search for truth.

 

No, I said "I BELIEVE we have conclusive proof". IT is MY OPINION we have conclusive proof.

I did NOT say 'we now have conclusive proof".

I did NOt say "I know for a fact that we have conclusive proof".

If you can't see the difference between the two, then I cannot help you.

 

Incompetent rebuttal: vacuous conclusion, unsubstantiated, therefore constitutes a non argument.

 

My comments are relevant to the topic of the thread. They point out your obvious hypocrisy on the issue.

 

You do realize that while people are bashing in the heads of police, busting down doors, smashing windows, etc, they are not looking at cell phone screens, right?

I've posted about this many times. Have you not been paying attention: I'll repeat something I wrote a few months back:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/what-caused-1-6.595031/#post-1073122445

On 1/6, the overall attack was due, ultimately, to Trump's continuous incendiary acts, comments, mentions, speeches, on 1/6, and going back over a period of many months, of which the predominant message was 'democrats stole the election' and that lie began before the first ballot was cast, inculcated in the minds and hearts of his follows long and hard, to such an extent, that it caused a welling up of what can rightfully be characterized as a juggernaut of rage, erupting in volcanic fashion on 1/6, resulting in several deaths and millions of worth of property damaged, some property stolen, and trespassing of the offices of congresspersons and senators and the terrorizing of persons thereby, and the delay of several hours of the constitutional proceedings.

Supporting my position:

In Trump v Thompson ( Chairman of the 1/6 committee) penning the ruling for MILLETT, WILKINS, and JACKSON, circuit judges, Circuit Judge Millet Wrote:

https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/inter...590852587A60075CC4F/$file/21-5254-1926128.pdf

MILLETT, Circuit Judge: On January 6, 2021, a mob professing support for then-President Trump violently attacked the United States Capitol in an effort to prevent a Joint Session of Congress from certifying the electoral college votes designating Joseph R. Biden the 46th President of the United States. The rampage left multiple people dead, injured more than 140 people, and inflicted millions of dollars in damage to the Capitol. 1 Then-Vice President Pence, Senators, and Representatives were all forced to halt their constitutional duties and flee the House and Senate chambers for safety.

[...]
...“the most serious attack on the operations of the Federal Government since the Civil War.”
[...]

On November 3, 2020, Americans elected Joseph Biden as President, giving him 306 electoral college votes. Then President Trump, though, refused to concede, claiming that the election was “rigged” and characterized by “tremendous voter fraud and irregularities[.]”
[...]
In anticipation of that event, President Trump had sent out a Tweet encouraging his followers to gather for a “big protest in D.C. on January 6th” and to “e there, will be wild!” Donald Trump (@realDonaldTrump), TWITTER (Dec. 19, 2020, 1:42 AM) (“Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election.”).
[...]
During his more than hour-long speech, President Trump reiterated his claims that the election was “rigged” and “stolen,” and urged then-Vice President Pence, who would preside over the certification, to “do the right thing” by rejecting various States’ electoral votes and refusing to certify the election in favor of Mr. Biden.
[...]
Toward the end of the speech, President Trump announced to his supporters that “we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue * * * to the Capitol and * * * we’re going to try and give our Republicans * * * the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.” Id. at 4:42:00–4:42:32. Urging the crowd to “demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated[,]” he warned that “you’ll never take back our country with weakness” [Trump] declared “[w]e fight like hell and if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

Shortly after the speech, a large crowd of President Trump’s supporters—including some armed with weapons and wearing full tactical gear—marched to the Capitol and violently broke into the building to try and prevent Congress’s certification of the election results. See Capitol Attack Senate Report at 23, 27–29. The mob quickly overwhelmed law enforcement and scaled walls, smashed through barricades, and shattered windows to gain access to the interior of the Capitol. Id. at 24–25. Police officers were attacked with chemical agents, beaten with flag poles and frozen water bottles, and crushed between doors and throngs of rioters.

As rioters poured into the building, members of the House and Senate, as well as Vice President Pence, were hurriedly evacuated from the House and Senate chambers. Capitol Attack Senate Report at 25–26. Soon after, rioters breached the Senate chamber. Id. In the House chamber, Capitol Police officers “barricaded the door with furniture and drew their weapons to hold off rioters.” Id. at 26. Some members of the mob built a hangman’s gallows on the lawn of the Capitol, amid calls from the crowd to hang Vice President Pence.

Even with reinforcements from the D.C. National Guard, the D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, Virginia State Troopers, the Department of Homeland Security, and the FBI, Capitol Police were not able to regain control of the building and establish a security perimeter for hours. Capitol Attack Senate Report at 26. The Joint Session reconvened late that night. It was not until 3:42 a.m. on January 7th that Congress officially certified Joseph Biden as the winner of the 2020 presidential election. Id. The events of January 6, 2021 marked the most significant assault on the Capitol since the War of 1812.4 The building was desecrated, blood was shed, and several individuals lost their lives. See Capitol Attack Senate Report at 27–29. Approximately 140 law enforcement officers were injured, and one officer who had been attacked died the next day. Id. at 29. In the aftermath, workers labored to sweep up broken glass, wipe away blood, and clean feces off the walls. 5 Portions of the building’s historic architecture were damaged or destroyed, including “precious artwork” and “statues, murals, historic benches and original shutters[.]”

You don't do that kind of incendiary behavior over many months, causing, fortifying, welling anger to a juggernaut of rage, light the fuse on 1/6, and think a few token tweets are going to be your get-out-of-jail card

 

Let me explain you why all RATIONAL Americans were outraged on what happened in JAN 6:
In America a court decides if a criminal acct was committed. It there is no evidence of any criminal act, in DEMOCRACY we assume no crime was committed.
Attorney General William Barr (nominated by President Trump) didn't find any evidence of the fraud.
Over 50 judges (some nominated by President Trump) didn't find any evidence of the fraud.
Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, both Republicans didn't find any evidence of the fraud.
Vice president Pence didn't find any evidence of the fraud.
Supreme Court Justices Appointed by Republicans Amy Coney Barrett, Brett Kavanaugh, John Roberts didn't find any evidence of the fraud.
Christopher A. Wray, Director of the FBI (Appointed by President Trump) didn't find any evidence of the fraud.
Christopher Krebs, director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency didn't find any evidence of the fraud.
Some Republican Senators and Congressman didn't find any evidence of the fraud.

So it is common sense why RATIONAL people were so outraged seeing so many gullible Americans.

 

No, my opinion is based on evidence.

You are twisting the argument.

Trump's words and deeds leading up to 1/6 where the prime mover of the events of 1/6, the speech of, which was interpreted by his flock as a call to action, it was the fuse that was lit.

That he didn't specifically state the crime committed cannot be extrapolated to 'words don't matter'.

Your twisting 'Trump's speech inspired crime and thus his words mattered to his flock' INTO 'implicit speech equals words don't matter' and is therefore a 180 degree turn, is a logical fallacy.

His speech, explicit or implicit, matters to his flock

That's the correct statement.

 

Yeah, and, as a public forum, I get to say 'don't be nutty' , live with it.

DUDE.

 

I don't make excuses for Jan 6th. He was wrong. He should have known better. He should have let things go as they are and pushed for an investigation of voter fraud afterwards. He should have known there would be some trouble makers in that crowd. I make no excuses for that. I just say he didn't do it to stage a coup. He didn't plan it. But it was stupid of him doing it.

 

In order for it to be sleight of hand, I would have to be on a stage entertaining someone via deception.

Since that is not what I did, it cannot be sleight of hand.

Using a similar technique to realize someone's state of mind, is adaptation.

Not deception.

Thanks for admitting you are very capable of engaging in logical fallacy.

 

I do, I have three I use. I try and make sure I see both sides.

 

No, just what do you think the FBI,Guard and Mayor were thinking? How was it to just to protect Trump supporters?

 

In other words, you claim to have conclusive proof, but you don't really believe it is conclusive.

 

But there was, in the works, a concrete plan to delay the 1/6 vote count. There were also concrete plans drawn for Trump to call martial law, stop the count, seize ballots, etc, which looks a helluva lot like seditious conspiracy. We do not know, however, thogh such things were committed to print, we do not know the extent to which such were being seriously considered. This is why the committee wants the testimonies of Bannon, Meadows, et al, even Trump's, and they are refusing to testify, which makes them really seem guilty.

We do know that Trump illegally tried to influence State Secy's of State to overturn legit state elections under unproven claims of fraud, he did this many times in many states, as I understand it.

We do know that Trump and/or his surrogates, sued some 60 times in order to overturn state elections, or delay elections, none of which succeeded in achieving that aim.

Now, why would Trump want to delay the 1/6 vote count?

Because he hoped that the objections raised during the procedure, would put into play a series of investigations which would push the final count passed the deadline, thereby throwing the election to the house, where republicans have a two state majority. This plan, however, was thwarted by the attack on the capitol, because when it happens, a number of senators and congresspersons who were planning to objected decided it would be in bad form to do that given the attack, so it doesn't look like the attack was part of Trump's plan. But....

I do not know if Trump intended for his flock to do all that damage, probably not, but he inspired it, and he must take responsibility, as president, because a president's words matter, and he must be held accountable for his actions.

The two, above, are separate, but could be construed as one big plan.

 

He is both stupid and corrupt.

 

So, those intimately aware of the Loser's communications and behavior before and during his goons' attack should be eager to testify under oath to exonerate the Loser.

We have learned that three very Trumpy Fox News entertainers and Trump Jr. were among those who pleaded with Meadows to get the Loser to call off his goons' attack on the Capitol. Why are some so fearful of exposing the details of such pertinent information if they believe Meadows concealed or distorted all such desperate calls to end it for hours?

Chris Christie 'Desperately' Tried to Contact Trump

"I was desperate to try to get in touch with him because I felt like what was happening was awful
and it was going to be a stain on his presidency. I wanted him to be the guy to stop it," Christie said.​

 

I think you (purposely) ignored the point. The line of reasoning is that these powerful republican people knew that Trump's supporters would do what he said. On January 6th, they were doing what they thought Trump wanted them to do based upon what Trump had said - that the election was a fraud, and "
'If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore'... Trump could have quickly clarified that hey, he didn't mean it literally, it was his usual truthful hyperbole... but he waited because they were doing what he wanted and they knew it. He only asked them to back down because people on his side were telling him it wasn't going to play well for him. It supports the notion that Trump at least indirectly caused the riot/insurrection. As usual, Trump toes the line between illegal and legal to support his own interests, and leaves room for plausible deniability.

 

I am sure there was all kinds of talk from people as what can they can do. But what they did is the important thing. What Trump allowed them to do, and what he did he should be held accountable for. I know people well enough to know they will say some of the stupidest things. Like putting to many troops on one side of an island could tip the island over. How Republicans can retake the house and have Trump run for Congress and elect him Speaker of the House and impeach Biden and Harris and he becomes President again.. We have a bunch of grownups running our government that act worse than kids. Actions mean much more than words. I think we have way to many nuts in our government.

 

You think they did what he wanted, but everyone around him knew that would only hurt him and they were telling him so. So why do something you know is going to hurt you instead of helping you? I agree though he indirectly caused the riots at the Capitol.