If Jesus died for my sins

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Jolly Penguin, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is what it all comes down to: we all have different natures; hence systems developed to help us all feel better about whichever life path we were on, especially if we weren't so content on that path to preclude feelings of envy, avarice, covetousness, etc. So, if pain is your thing, secure yourself an introduction to the nearest flagellants' sect.
     
  2. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you don't mind my warping your question, this makes me think about the idea of Predestination. Though I only know what they taught us in Catholic religion class, this is a the idea of some Protestant Faith that some are the, "Elect," pre-ordained to be going to heaven after this life, regardless of how they live, and others are, you know, unelect.

    What interests me most about this is the similarity it bears to the philosophy of the reputedly wisest man on earth, King Solomon, in the book of Ecclesiastes.

    As, at that time, there wasn't belief in a heaven & hell as we think of them, this was Solomon's take on our fates in this LIFE; that is, that we really don't make our own fate.

    Let me interject, here, that I'm not a Christian, any longer, nor a zealot, but recommend this just from the perspective of a curious thing to see. And this Biblical book is literally just a couple of pages long.

    What makes it so notable is that the philosophy seems so un-kosher. Solomon says that life is not fair. Some people are very just, & generous, & honest, and so forth, nevertheless everything goes wrong for them; life won't cut 'em a break. Other people lead dissipated, dissolute lives, and yet life always seems to be smiling upon them. They are life's favorites, with pre-approved credit, so to speak, while others are pre-judged schmucks.

    The most curious part is the way it ends. "Therefore," you should always obey God, or the like, as if that was a logical conclusion, instead of a direct contradiction, of everything preceding it. IF Solomon even wrote that last line, it was only an add-on because, as the head of the religion, he felt like he had to. More likely, I think, it was tacked on later, to bring this, kind of depressing, view of life more into accord with what the religion was trying to sell.
     
  3. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm surprised, or maybe I'm not, that no Christian has actually pointed out your false logic. The theology of Jesus's death was NOT that he died for all your future sins, per se, even though it is often said in that loose way, in more casual use. Instead, he died for ORIGINAL SIN, the sin of Adam (& Eve) of disobeying God & eating from the Tree of Knowledge of good & evil. This is a psychologically interesting path to explore, IMO.

    Anyway, I'm sure you'll have more fun with the concept that all of us, because of Adam, are tarnished w/ this sin; i.e., every human is considered born into sin. Because of that disobedience, or awareness of good and evil, the gates of Heaven were closed to human souls. But when Jesus, as a human being, died, his soul, of course, was able to reopen the Gates, allowing other human souls to follow. At least that's how it's explained in Catholicism (which I haven't practiced in 35 years).

    I didn't say it would make more sense to you, only that the base assumption, for the OP, was erroneous.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  4. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Your dog is a nice fellow/lady who doesn't threaten you with hellfire if you come home late and doesn't coax you with heaven for a biscuit. Your dog loves you unconditionally and is always happy to see you. Your dog wants cuddles, cookies, and a walk, not your eternal blind obedience and worship. I like your dog and I haven't even met your dog.
     
  5. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Here's something to consider, for any that have children. Did you tell them, when they were young, that Santa was real? If so, you were purposefully deceiving your children. Lying to their faces, knowing that they would one day, certainly, realize this. (And yet you probably so assumed their forgiveness, as a given, that you never gave it a thought).

    While I guess there was a valuable lesson in that, for them, it was: you can trust NO ONE, not even your own parents are above lying to you.

    It seems to me, I'd rather have any children of mine know that, even if the world will try to trick & bamboozle them, they could always count on me to be honest & straight with them-- if not always knowing the right answer-- no matter what. (Which would not preclude the possibility, of course, of telling them that something was beyond their appreciation, due to their young age).

    For those who say that Santa is an indispensable part of the joy of youth, I point out that all he really teaches is that, at a certain time of year, they get presents for no reason that any of them truly grasp (evidenced in this thread by the lack of understanding by adults, of even basic religious concepts that many of us, no doubt, were raised with). It is, to use a political analogy, one of their earliest concepts of an entitlement.

    Would it be such a loss to explain to them, instead, that Santa is meant to represent the spirit of communion with others, the desire to offer kindnesses to those with whom we share our human condition? Would a childhood less fixated on toys & gadgets and more focused on relationships, on helping others, on the warmth of spirit that comes from sharing and giving, the true tradition of the yuletide season, immemorial, be a less rich framework to take into their future lives?
     
  6. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    'Tis true. Sad but true reality of life.

    That makes sense yes, because yes, it would seem to be a rather blatant contradiction. Interesting find.
     
  7. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the Christian really. I have met plenty of Christians who will ask me if I have ever done a bad thing, and if I have then I need Jesus to forgive me, and he can whipe clean all my sins. Also brings catholic confession to mind. The priest tells you to say some hail marys or whatever, as if that will somehow make up for something bad you did?

    The really weird part is that yes, others say this is only for original sin, which is something you and I are not even responsible for, but something apparently our first ancestors did. This concept of punishing the son for the sin of the father is pretty messed up. Its right up there with vicarious redemption (the other part of Jesus' sacrifice); that one person's suffering (why must it be suffering?) can pay for another person's wrongdoing. In any non-religious context, we recognize that as wrong.

    And its the "Fruit of knowledge of good and evil" right? So they can't have known it is morally wrong not to obey God before they ate of this fruit. So this is a great example of a very oft repeated theme in the bible; that obedience is to trump morality (you'll see it come up again and again thereafter).

    For some Christians it is errorneous, yes. For others it is precise. Christianity is a very broad label; a religion that has many conflicting sects.
     
  8. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I think Santa is a great lie, and I think we should definitely encourage lies being told to children; so long as they are somewhat easily unraveled like Santa, so children learn at an early age to question authority figures and not blindly believe whatever they are told. The Santa lie encourages kids to question, and that is an excellent lesson.

    Exactly. I sometimes play "poppycock" (adult version is "bullshit"), which is a fun game in which you tell 3 short stories or facts and ask them to spot the lie. It is fun and it teaches them to question and inquire and research on their own, instead of passively accepting whatever they are told by adults. Its a lesson we should all learn.

    Depends on what its about. We shouldn't lie so much to them that they distrust us implicitly or grow up cynical, etc. But a few fun lies here and there is good for them.

    Unlike with God, who rewards you based on if you believe in him, and if you endorse a blood sacrifice of suffering, etc, Santa rewards you for being good or bad. And the worst thing he'll do if you are bad is give you a lump of coal; which is quite valuable in this economy.

    That's what you do once they see through the charade. Its not a hard one to see through, and that's what makes it beautiful.

    You can do both. And "gifts from Santa" don't have to be anything elaborate. In fact, kids being told Santa rewards based on good and bad, and then seeing some friends who are jerks get fancier toys than other friends who are great people, can help them see through the lie. It can turn them into being anti-materialist instead of materialist. At least that's what happend to me as a child.

    Fun Fact: Santa is an anagram for Satan. They both wear red, and both go down tubes of fire. Santa Claus, or Satan's Claws??????
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  9. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    And I'm finding your's an interesting thread, more so than I would've guessed (thanks to all the participants).

    If you're interested, I have further reflections on Ecclesiastes & Solomon. I will have to be forgiven for having the aplomb to critique the philosophy of the wisest man in world, but think of it as a lion and the mouse scenario: we all, no matter how lofty, have our personal blind spots.

    So the potential flaw I see in Ecclesiastes is this: it assumes the dynamic one experiences with the world is a FIXED thing, unchanging, and unchangeable. Had he only thought about his grandfather, King David, however, he may have had an inkling of a theory I am trying to explore: that Fate's, or God's, or the World's disposition toward a person could change, if one could change Life's opinion or judgement of oneself.

    For example, before David, there was King Saul, who the Lord (according to the Bible) long smiled upon. As he got older, though, David became a consistent worry. Nevertheless, he long kept the feared usurper at bay. But eventually God abandoned Saul, for going to diviners & so forth (though, if Saul were to tell it, I imagine he'd say that he started going to the fortune tellers & necromancers because God had abandoned him). And then, the favor that God had shone upon David grew greater, leading him to the throne.

    I don't have any results or methods to share with you, at present-- I haven't pursued this idea as enthusiastically as I might, due to an enthusiasm deficit. Unfortunately, I feel that having enthusiasm is possibly the key to getting the Universe to take notice, and begin taking an interest, which could lead to patronage. So it may be a Catch-22 situation. God definitely has an ironic sense of humor.

    The only conceptual model I've so far come up with, is that of us all being characters in a soap opera or what have you, & trying to get the Watcher intrigued or admiring enough to feel connected, and then invested in one's fate.
     
  10. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Since my post didn't offer you any ideas of value, from the more practical standpoint, perhaps you will get some posting ideas, at least, from looking at its flip side. That is, since this thread, ultimately, is about God, & God is thought of as our Father (or parent), all my thoughts, and your replies, about the Santa charade between parents & children, could also be considered in light of the God - Human relationship.

    If you've got nothing better to do, that is.
     
  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    As long as I provide and in no particular order;
    food
    shelter
    attention/exercise
    and, for some reason known only to him - his favorite 'chewy'
     
  12. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps Gods lie to us and wish the confusion and that is why they write books and communicate otherwise as we'd expect humans to rather than simply making us know what they want us to know. I've considered that. It would make some sense. And perhaps they do it to encourage us to question them and each other. Good thought.
     
  13. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Blessed be the holy chewie.
     
  14. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Dogs call to the child in us all. I'm not sure however that this analogy extends all the way to questions about the existence of God.

    Although I will admit that the idea God might actually have a dog is bizarrely strangely comforting. And no I'm not seriously considering it. (It's just a nice thought.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  15. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    What if I bring you his head on a pike? (Not real anymore).
     
  16. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Forgot to add - referencing the 'door 'A', door 'B' analogy I used previously. I kind of think it does. If God knows all the outcomes of all possible decisions we might make then by default God would be all knowing. There is literally no decision we can possibly make, no choice we can take where the outcome, from God's perspective is not foreseeable. As opposed to humans - because we don't know what we'll decide to do in the future until we're confronted with the choice concerned.

    And while I know this makes God sound like the ultimate quantum computer its not my intention. The concepts we're discussing are way beyond my intellectual pay grade. So I'm stumbling here.
     
  17. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of farts, your irrational animus is duly noted.
     
  18. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Why must you be so cruel? You need a dog. In dog we trust.
     
  19. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    He isn't all knowing unless he also knows what decision we will make, before we make it. If he's all knowing, then to him, there are not multiple possibilities, there is only what will be.

    Don't sell yourself short. You are smart and you do fine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  20. pol meister

    pol meister Well-Known Member

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    I know not what you speak of. You went astray when you went IOW.
     
  21. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    How many years of waiting for an imaginary god do you have to wait before admitting that supernatural entities are all imaginary?

    Regards
    DL
     
  22. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for recognizing the qualities.

    It has been said that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. They are correct given that we show our better morals by condemning that foul Yahweh to hell.

    Not that I am fool enough to believe in such nonsense.

    Have you rejected the genocidal Yahweh for his evil ways?

    Regards
    DL
     
  23. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Those who honor and idol worship a genocidal Yahweh are way more astray than I.

    Regards
    DL
     
  24. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    It was just a joke.

    And while a I like dogs, I'm more of a cat-person.
     
  25. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Still not acknowledging the innate contradictions in your line of argument (as per post 221) though are you.
     

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