Impeachment does NOT require a crime

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by HereWeGoAgain, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well it is just my opinion and who knows. But I am willing to bet that at least some supportive testimony from the witnesses the House demands will get perjury referral. Some House reps have already implied (though not said directly) such.
     
  2. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Interesting point but it isn't equivalent. Neither the House nor the Senate has the command authority or power that a Grand Jury has. A Grand Jury has legal power to call anybody they choose with cause though the president can still claim executive privilege which would be reviewable by the courts. Congress can not call anybody they want for any reason they want. This doubly applies to the executive branch under the separation of powers.
     
  3. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Who? And, if they support the case for conviction, why wouldn't you expect GOP Senators to do the same?
     
  4. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think it debatable. The Constitution gives the Senate the "sole power" to try an impeachment. I would think that power rises to the level of a Grand Jury...although I certainly acknowledge the power of a Grand Jury. If the witness and documents are requested, I would think both have to be produced and the 5th amendment right or executive privilege claimed in regard to specific requests and/or testimony. Broadly, while due process gives you the right of habeas corpus, it doesn't mean you can insist on your innocence and your right to confront your accuser from a distance - i.e. you have to appear in court to exercise the right.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  5. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sometimes it is; sometimes it is not constitutional.

    I assume you meant the greatest fear "was", and in that case, no, it was not. The framers had a pretty good idea on how to contain a president, but found no simple clear way to contain a rogue House doing an impeachment. Hence that was their biggest fear in the entire Constitution.
     
  6. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All correct.
     
  7. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Donor

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    Making the claim that publicly announced, closed door depositions (done to prevent witnesses from coordinating testimony)......................to which Repubs from the appropriate committees were invited to participate and given the same rights to ask questions as Dems were, the transcripts from those depositions being made public once they all were conducted..............were held in secret is the work of a propagandist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  8. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The senators (and IMO that would include most of the Democrats in the Senate) would not make any perjury referrals unless they had a very strong reasonable suspicion that perjury was committed. The House Democrats will not be inhibited in the least by that. They make up stuff with no remorse as easily as getting up in the morning. Why do you think they demanded the grand jury transcripts from the Mueller investigation, knowing full well they had no right to them?
     
  9. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    IMO it is amazing that you and many others here interpret "sole power of impeachment or sole power to try an impeachment" as for instance that the House has the authority and in essence plenary power to do anything under the impeachment umbrella they want. That is not what the Constitution says or means. Sole power to impeach means that no other person or body can impeach..... period. It does not give the House or the Senate free ride over the separation of powers or freedom from due process or freedom to define what is impeachable any way they want. No 4-letter word way.
     
  10. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    NEWSFLASH: Hearings held behind closed and locked doors with absolute prohibitions on what the committee members could say what went on is otherwise called...... wait for it...... secret hearings.
     
  11. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Donor

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    Good advice to all.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  12. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Whatever...then the House managers could go back to the House and impeach the officials they believed lied under oath and it would go back to the Senate. So what? If they have solid evidence that they committed perjury, are you suggesting that be ignored? Sorry, not following your logic.
     
  13. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Why do you feel they've done that? Was it you that argued the President has "plenary power" in foreign policy. a week or so ago? Please, tell me where in the Constitution it says: "In regard to impeachment, the separation of powers prohibits Congress from impeaching and trying the President on impeachment?"
    The "separation of powers" is defined by the words themselves and the distribution of powers defined in the Constitution. Why do you think the President's right to due process applies in this case of House impeachment? Do you really think the defendant is entitled to the details of an investigation PRIOR to the indictment?
     
  14. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree the House could try to impeach witnesses whose testimony they did not like (except for Bolton). My point was that the House would not have or need any solid evidence of perjury to make a referral. A witness who testifies in support of Trump is all the "evidence" they require.
     
  15. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Think long and hard about advocating this kind of a theory. It if become the precedent, every time a democratic president underwhelms a republican house, they will be just as summarily impeached. I know, you didn't consider that, but the precedent will have been set, and there wouldn't be any reason for a non party house to always impeach the opposition party president. That isn't what the framers had in mind, nor is it justifiable in what they wrote about what they envisioned this process to be. So, again, careful what you wish for in your myopia....
     
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  16. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Bill Clinton was charged with, and primarily impeached for lying under oath to a grand jury, (PERJURY)-- an actual CRIME on its own, all by itself, without any necessary connection to a "civil suit" whatever....

    No wonder both sides in this Trump 'impeachment' hubbub can't even talk to each other rationally if we can't even get Bill Clinton's actual impeachment understood correctly! Are ALL of us really this stupid?! :spin:
     
  17. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have never said the president has plenary power of anything. I said he has the sole authority for conducting foreign policy but he has limitations on that, for example only congress can allocate funds and the senate has to approve any treaty (with the exception of Obama...... but that's another story.) Nor have I ever said that the House doesn't have the sole power to impeach. I did say their procedures have to obey the Constitution and the law. They are not allowed to ignore restrictions just because they are the only ones that can impeach. In the three other impeachment hearings the president most certainly had equal access to whatever the House was doing and had the ability to respond and question.
     
  18. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It not only wasn't what the framers had in mind; their greatest fear of the republic falling apart stemmed from a rogue House using impeachment to take political power from the president and destroying the fundamental linchpin principle of the separation of powers.
     
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  19. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Of course this is why democrats and their faithful are so dangerous to this nation. As much as they were when they clung to their slavery, their devotion to new socialism is the cancer that must now be cured.
     
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  20. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Just how specifically, are Democrats socialists?
     
  21. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Plus, Trump had temporarily halted all foreign aid for a review, during the August-September time frame. This was not Trump targeting only aid to Ukraine.

    Here is a link to this:

    Foreign aid funds put on hold for review

    The Trump administration has temporarily frozen and ordered a review of several key foreign aid funds that Congress has already approved, in a move that critics fear could lead to another attempted rollback of foreign aid.

    The Office of Management and Budget sent a letter to the State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development on Saturday (July 27th), notifying them of the action, which took effect one minute before midnight that day.

    We also saw state department witnesses comment on exactly this during their testimony before the House Inel committee. They stated that their was a broad hold on all aid, just as this news article says. So it's not as if this information was not already public knowledge, it was not denied to anyone.
     
  22. EyesWideOpen

    EyesWideOpen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe when a self-described socialist is the leading candidate in the Democratic primary? The dems are either socialists, or lean very heavily towards socialism to have swung so far left as to have this man leading in the primary.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  23. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Who is Bernie Sanders? Who is AOC? Probably the better question, and the shorter list is "which democrats are NOT socialists"... Of course, socialist isn't the only description. These are the elitist autocrats who would wrest real liberty from the citizens and enslave them to protect their elite positions. You hear it even in the "polite" conversation. It's why folks become "deplorable", it's why we must be separated from our guns and religion. The warning signs have been amongst us for a long time. And our dependable idiots in the majority of media are their mouthpieces.
     
  24. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Donor

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    With cause, just like Congress.
     
  25. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    I doubt it. If you think so, you've been ignoring the House manger's case for the last two days. It would take more corroborating evidence to show perjury other than what they "disliked." You are ignoring the existing evidence and trying to make this entirely an issue of party partisanship. He broke the law and conspired to pressure Ukraine into investigations that would benefit both his personal re-election this year and Putin's claim of Russian non-interference in the 2016 election. Then, he conspired to keep the attempt secret.
     

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