Is black criminality genetically determined?

Taxonomy26 · Jun 23, 2017

J.Idallian said: ↑

No, actually the math has been done a hundred times. Blacks are far more likely to commit crime any way you slice it. The only thing that's been up for debate is what causes it.

Statistics show a general correlation between low IQ and higher crime. Blacks tend to have lower IQ. They tend to have higher crime. This matches up.

What doesn't match up is that other races with an IQ level near blacks in the United States, do not commit crime at the same rates, ie) Mexican immigrants and their first generation offspring.

This means that while IQ can be a contributing factor, it doesn't tell the entire story, which is why people are searching for other answers. You can call anyone looking for the answer a white nationalist all you want, but, I like to think of the people who are attempting to figure this out patriots, since they're searching for a way to make this country safer.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's Genetic, and it has nothing to with Slavery/culture.
Anyone Notice that blacks Are better athletes?
Testosterone and Receptors for it (along with IQ), is responsible for that Crime.
That's also why it's young/Under 30 Blacks. After that age, the high T levels out.

Testosterone, Race, and Crime
April 15, 2016
http://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/15/testosterone-race-and-crime/

One factor which explains part of why Blacks have higher than average crime rates is testosterone. Testosterone is known to cause aggression, and Blacks are known to at once have more of it and, for genetic reasons, to be more sensitive to its effects.

Meta-analyzes show that testosterone is correlated with aggression among humans and non human animals (Book, Starzyk, and Quinsey, 2001). Women who suffer from a disease known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia are exposed to abnormally high amounts of testosterone and are abnormally aggressive. And artificially increasing the amount of testosterone in a person's blood has been shown to lead to increases in their level of aggression (Burnham 2007) (Kouri et al. 1995). In fact, a study of Rhehus monkeys found that injecting female fetuses with testosterone caused them to behave just as aggressively as young males (Book, Starzyk, and Quinsey, 2001). Thus, testosterone seems to cause aggression.

Testosterone is also known to Differ Racially. Richard et al 2014 Meta-analyzed data from 14 separate studies and found clear evidence that Blacks have higher levels of free floating testosterone in their blood than Whites do.

Further still, Multiple studies have found that Blacks are more likely than Whites to carry a genotype which produces an Androgen Receptor which will make them more sensitive than average to the effects of testosterone
(Irvine et al 1995, Wang et al. 2013, Bennet et al. 2002, and Shibalev et al. 2013).
And, as reviewed in Ellis, Beaver, and Wright 2013, this high sensitivity genotype has been associated with both aggressive personality traits and crime.
Thus, testosterone is likely one Causal factor in the high crime rates of Blacks.

Lower IQ, Higher T.
Dangerous Combo.
`

Taxonomy26 · Jun 23, 2017

Is it Slavery, Ghetto Culture?
No, it's International and consistently Multiples higher.

Homicide rates
Murder most foul
A global picture of homicide rates
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/10/homicide-rates

Taxonomy26 · Jun 23, 2017

How about London?
No Slavery there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom#Race_and_crime_in_London

Race and crime in London

Figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that in 2007 an estimated 10.6% of London's population of 7,556,900 were Black.[23]
[.......]
In June 2010 The Sunday Telegraph, through a Freedom of Information Act request, obtained statistics on accusations of crime broken down by race from the Metropolitan Police Service.[2] The figures showed that the Majority of males who were accused of Violent crimes in 2009–10 were Black.
Of the recorded 18,091 such accusations against males, 54% accused of street crimes were black; for robbery, 59%; and for gun crimes, 67%.[25] Robbery, drug use, and gang violence have been associated with black people since the 1960s.[26] In the 1980s and 1990s, the police associated robbery with black people. In 1995, the Metropolitan Police commissioner Paul Condon said that the majority of robberies in London were committed by black people.[27]
[......]
In London in 2006, 75% of the victims of Gun crime and 79% of the suspects were "from the African/Caribbean community."[31]

Breathtaking, but not Unprecedented.
Nearly 80% of the Gun crimes in London are committed by Black Englishmen/10% of it's population.
Who would have guessed!
Who would tell you the truth even if they knew, or looked? Not many here.

Egalitarianjay02 · Jul 1, 2017

No, Black criminals do not commit crime because their genes are different from other races. The same accusation that criminality within the Black community is caused by the innate character of the criminals (e.g. natural-born criminals) was leveled at Irish and Italian communities who were also disproportionately poor when they started coming to America. Other communities such as the Chinese faced similar racism. Chinese men and others of Asian descent where seen as naturally violent and sexually aggressive who would be dangerous to White women (see: The Yellow Peril). Racist attitudes like this led to policies such as The Chinese Exclusion Act.

So this propaganda against Black people is not new, it has been directed at other ethnic groups and it persists mainly because of White Supremacists on the internet who distort statistics and misuse science as a tool to promote racism. The popular theme is to claim that there is a genetic basis to racist stereotypes and that Blacks are more prone to criminality because of their evolutionary lineage. We know that this theory has been debunked by empirical research. The claims about racial differences in testosterone have been addressed before with no serious rebuttal by racists.

Joseph Graves said:

From: (EgalitarianJay02)
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 4:30 PM
To: Joseph L. Graves
Subject: Race and Testosterone

Hello Dr. Graves,

I recently debated another racist who claims that Blacks have higher testosterone than other races. They cited the following PubMed Link as their evidence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

I remember you addressing testosterone levels in "Misuse of Life History Theory" and was hoping you could help me address this claim. The abstract for the study says that Blacks have a significantly higher percentage of testosterone than Whites even after making adjustments for time of sampling, age, weight, alcohol use, cigarette smoking, and use of prescription drug. Can you please help me make sense of this study and how it does not support the claim of racial differences in testosterone level?

Sincerely,

EgalitarianJay02

From: Joseph L. Graves (gravesjl@ncat.edu)
Sent: Mon 4/13/15 1:55 PM
To: (EgalitarianJay02)
Subject: Race and Testosterone

Dear (EgalitarianJay02), First see attached article (2002) showing no androgen difference between blacks and whites (adjusting for age & BMI). The problem begins with using the socially-defined terms "black" and "white" in an attempt to make a phenotypic comparison of a trait controlled by multiple genetic and environment factors. Testosterone levels are routinely affected by a number of social/environmental factors (diet, stress, etc.). They can vary by orders of magnitude in the same individual, even in the same day. A one time measurement of this hormone is a weak comparison of the amounts of the hormones that individuals would experience throughout their life time. So long and short of it is that the 1985 study is simply meaningless, let alone the incorrect grouping of individuals by socially-defined race.

Sincerely,

Dr. Joseph L. Graves Jr.
Associate Dean for Research
Professor of Biological Sciences
Joint School of Nanosciences & Nanoengineering
Suite 2200, Rm 104
North Carolina A&T State University
UNC Greensboro
2901 E. Lee St.
Greensboro, NC 27401

Attached Article:

Serum Androgen Concentrations in Young Men: A Longitudinal Analysis of Associations with Age, Obesity, and Race. The CARDIA Male Hormone Study

Click to expand...

Joseph Graves said:

Hormonal Values. Rushton's treatment of hormonal values and their relation to reproductive behavior and aggression is also problematic. Citing studies like Ellis and Nyborg (1992) he claimed that black males have higher levels of circulating androgens, and that this makes them more sexually aggressive, violent, and lawless. These androgen differences are again related to the overarching theme of differential r- and K-selection.

The proper interpretation of Ellis and Nyborg (1992) is not straightforward. First the study examined men that had been discharged from the U.S. Army between 1965 and 1971. The sample size was 3,654 non-Hispanic (whites), 525 blacks, 268 Hispanics, 24 Asian Pacific Islanders, and 49 native Americans. The hormonal essays were obtained from men at about 38 years old. The raw data reported geometric means for the groups in this order: Asian Pacific Islander 689 ng/dl > Black 658 ng/dl > White 637 ng/dl > Hispanic 633 ng/dl > Native American 631 ng/dl. These data are adjusted for the age differentials of the samples (testosterone levels are negatively correlated with age) and the rankings remain the same. However, when the samples are adjusted for both age and weight differentials of the groups, the order changes to Black 659 ng/dl > Asian Pacific Islander 647 ng/dl > Native American 645 ng/dl > White 637 ng/dl > Hispanic 623 ng/dl. Ellis and Nyborg (1992) provided no rationale in the work for the specific age and weight relations used to account for the formal figures.

They simply stated that testosterone levels are negatively associated with weight and provided no allometric equation that could be used to follow their calculations of the new figures. This is problematic. The specific assumptions one uses to calculate these values not only are important in the calculation but also in its biological interpretation. For example, if androgen level secretions were generally constant across weight, and body weight somehow provided a dilution factor, then androgen levels would be negatively correlated with weight Thus, biologically, men with smaller body weights would in reality be facing higher functional concentrations of androgen. This means that for the purposes of Ellis and Nyborg (1992) and Rushton (1995) the unconnected figures are the most relevant. These uncorrected figures are, of course, not consistent with their racial r- and K-continuum.

Even with the "corrected" figures we find that, although black men were highest in their study, Asian men were in between them and whites. Even if such data were interpretable in a genetic context, this result is also in opposition with Rushton's continuum. Nor does Rushton's androgen hypothesis of criminality and reproduction do well with the Hispanic figures of Ellis and Nyborg (1992). The two most rapidly growing groups in both reproductive and crime rates in the United States are African Americans and Hispanics (the characteristics of individuals currently in the criminal justice system can be obtained from http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov).

Many scholars have argued that the increase of Hispanics and African Americans in the criminal justice system is due to ongoing discrimination, particularly resulting from the "war on drugs." Despite that however, the androgen studies in this sample have Hispanic men lowest in the "Corrected" data, again demonstrating a violation of the predictions of the r- and K-continuum and of the androgen level-criminality hypothesis. Finally, Rushton's assertions about the function of the human endocrine system in this argument are entirely fallacious. It is well known that testosterone levels influence sex drive in male primates, but this influence is markedly modified by learning (Jones, 1991).

In experiments in which additional testosterone was given to males, their sex drive did not increase above normal levels, and testosterone levels are strongly influenced by daily and seasonal rhythms (Jones, 1991). Bronson (1995) revived extensive literature that shows strong environmental determination of female hormones also. In addition, transient aggression also influences testosterone titers in human males; such things as tennis matches, stress, collegiate exams, army basic training, and so on can decrease titers (Kreuz, Rose, & Jennings, 1972; Mazur & Lamb, 1980; Morberg, 1985; Nelson 1995). In general, studies that used psychological rating scales to quantify levels of aggression and hostility found no relation to androgen levels in human males (Doering et al., 1975; Monti Brown, & Corriveau, 1977; Persky et al., 1977). Thus, unless all the participants in these testosterone measurements had been kept under the same environments and had displayed the same psychological responses to them, such studies are literally meaningless.

Rushton's analysis of the sex hormone data is crucial to his attempt to claim that r-selected people, Africans, are predisposed to criminality. He characterized these particularly victimizing crimes as the opposite of "altruism" (a K-selected trait). He reprised Ellis's (1987) argument, saying that "across societies, blacks had higher rates of victimizing crime rates than whites, and in turn, whites had higher rates than Orientals" (Rushton, 1995, p. 215). Ellis concluded that the same underlying neurohormonal mechanisms that regulate the racial difference in reproductive strategies are mediating the difference in crime rate also. This assertion ignores the historical and present racism of the U.S. criminal justice system. His theory has a severe problem explaining the Japanese rape and enslavement of Korean women during World War II, the very high rate of Chinese opium addiction following the Opium Wars, and the European perpetration of kidnap, confinement, rape, and murder of Africans during U.S. slavery. The general problem here is attempting to ascribe a genetic basis to a behavior (criminality or law abidingness) that is socially defined (and hence plastic).

Source: The Misuse of Life History Theory: J.P. Rushton and the Pseudoscience of Racial Hierarchy, in J. Fish (ed.) Race and Intelligence: Separating Myth from Science. Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates. (2002)
Click to expand...

Bottom Line: Differences in hormone levels do not cause people to behave violently and can not account for differences in crime statistics nor can measurements of testosterone level be properly apportioned to show a statistically significant difference between racial groups. The studies that make these claims are conceptually flawed and use unreliable methodologies to reach these conclusions. Besides those glaring problems with the testosterone theory historical accounts of human atrocities committed by different groups conclusively debunks any claim of racial differences in aggression and propensity for violence. So the claim itself is based on a fallacy and there are counter examples which refute the overall position that Blacks or any other group are naturally more violent.

Taxonomy26 · Jul 4, 2017

Egalitarianjay02 said: ↑

No, Black criminals do not commit crime because their genes are different from other races. The same accusation that criminality within the Black community is caused by the innate character of the criminals (e.g. natural-born criminals) was leveled at Irish and Italian communities who were also disproportionately poor when they started coming to America. Other communities such as the Chinese faced similar racism. Chinese men and others of Asian descent where seen as naturally violent and sexually aggressive who would be dangerous to White women (see: The Yellow Peril). Racist attitudes like this led to policies such as The Chinese Exclusion Act.So this propaganda against Black people is not new, it has been directed at other ethnic groups and it persists mainly because of White Supremacists on the internet who distort statistics and misuse science as a tool to promote racism. The popular theme is to claim that there is a genetic basis to racist stereotypes and that Blacks are more prone to criminality because of their evolutionary lineage. We know that this theory has been debunked by empirical research. The claims about racial differences in testosterone have been addressed before with no serious rebuttal by racists.
Bottom Line: Differences in hormone levels do not cause people to behave violently and can not account for differences in crime statistics nor can measurements of testosterone level be properly apportioned to show a statistically significant difference between racial groups. The studies that make these claims are conceptually flawed and use unreliable methodologies to reach these conclusions. Besides those glaring problems with the testosterone theory historical accounts of human atrocities committed by different groups conclusively debunks any claim of racial differences in aggression and propensity for violence. So the claim itself is based on a fallacy and there are counter examples which refute the overall position that Blacks or any other group are naturally more violent.
Click to expand...

"Bottom Line"?
You cannot debate me At All.
We're back to 9 months ago.
You're a one-trick/NO trick pony/Graves Spammer.
Everyone please check the string in which I cited many, many sources, Ejay just posts ole Joe Graves as 'rebuttal'/ultimate authority.
Here I show Ejay's singular 'technique.'

A Reality Check on Race and IQ
http://politicalforum.com/index.php...on-race-and-iq.479911/page-23#post-1066744436

""Dear Brother Joe
(at Black college NC-A&T), who I know agrees with me already, or I would not have written.

Could you please give me your Opinion on Race, so I can post it, and call it 'rebuttal' on a message board?

Thanks,
EgalitarianJay02""

PS: my previous post told you All you ever have to know about Ejay02.
Quote/endlessly Spam Joe Graves/Bash Rushton, (While I've posted at least a Dozen good sources in this string alone)
That's it.
He had no real response to the OP, except to call the interviewee a 'scientific racist'.
(as opposed to his SOUL source Graves, who is a 'non-scientific scientist.')
+
Taxonomy26, Oct 20, 2016

NOTHING has Changed.
You got NO Game. Zero.
Just Graves as scripture... while I post Link - after study - after link...
you post ole Joe Graves saying he disagrees.
Your 'duh-bate' is so Pathetic/Obtuse, it always Helps prove My point.
+

Egalitarianjay02 · Jul 5, 2017

Taxonomy26 said: ↑

You cannot debate me At All.
Click to expand...

How can I debate you when you when you haven't even presented an argument? All you've done is complain about me citing Graves. I responded to the OP with a source that refutes the core argument of people like you which is that measurements of testosterone level between groups can be properly apportioned to show a statistically significant difference which determines levels of aggression and propensity for violence. Your argument is based on nothing more than seeking a genetic basis for racist stereotypes which is an ideological rather than scientific position. All you are doing is link dumping. You haven't provided any evidence that naturally higher testosterone levels in an individual causes them to be more violent or that this is a causative factor in differences in crime rates between groups. The research that I cited by Graves shows that studies like the ones you have cited are meaningless because they are conceptually flawed and rely on poor methodology to reach their conclusion. Not only has it been scientifically proven that increases in testosterone do not increase sex drive or aggression in males with normal testosterone levels and testosterone levels fluctuate depending on environmental variables such as diet, stress, physical activity as well as daily and seasonal rhythms but psychological rating scales used to measure levels of aggression do not find an association between androgen levels and aggressive behavior. Besides all of these facts there are real world examples that completely undercut your argument. Historical atrocities committed by different groups of people show that all groups have a capacity for violence and men from all groups can be extremely sexually aggressive due to developing a culture of degeneracy.

You haven't refuted any of these arguments nor even seriously challenged them which is why I keep repeating them. Graves made valid arguments and you can't refute them. Instead of complaining about my citation of a source and trying to dismiss him because he's an African-American or teaches at a historically Black college, which is irrelevant to his credentials that establish him as a credible source qualified to speak on the subject, why not address the actual arguments being made? You won't do it because you can't.

Taxonomy26 · Jul 5, 2017

You're Full of it and FactLess.
It's just you and Graves (who pre-agrees/confirmation bias/Bigoted, even Mono/Unique sampling) that there are no Race Differences despite overwhelming Evidence.
Of course, you being a Hypocritical Racialist yourself, you disagree that there aren't any differences, in that you, unlike Graves, allow that Blacks are better athletes. Part of that too is Testosterone and Androgen Receptors, the latter of which you didn't even address.

Once you allow any differences besides melanin, your argument unravels and is subject to overwhelming statistical/biological/Behavioral evidence.
I presented it above, and you WHIFFED in favor of your only refuge: 'Graves agrees with me'.
Again, you got NO Game at all.
You've failed on several boards now, and bailed out in our last discussion/my string linked above.

A Reality Check on Race and IQ
http://politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/a-reality-check-on-race-and-iq.479911/

ie, Google:
'Androgen Receptors black'
Page 1.

Racial Differences in the androgen/androgen receptor pathway in ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › NCBI › Literature › PubMed Central (PMC)
by CA Pettaway - ‎1999 - ‎Cited by 65 - ‎Related articles
Finally, androgen receptor gene polymorphisms leading to shorter or longer glutamine and glycine residues in the receptor protein are correlated with racial variation in the incidence and severity of prostate cancer.

Racial Differences in androgen receptor protein expression in men ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12913756
by KE Gaston - ‎2003 - ‎Cited by 99 - ‎Related articles
CONCLUSIONS: AR protein expression was 22% higher in the benign prostate and 81% higher in the CaP of Black African compared with white men. CaP may occur at a younger age and progress more rapidly in Black than in white men due to racial differences in androgenic stimulation of the prostate.

Androgen receptor protein expression in prostatic tissues in Black and ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15065095
by EO Olapade-Olaopa - ‎2004 - ‎Cited by 27 - ‎Related articles
Prostate. 2004 Jun 1;59(4):460-8. Androgen receptor protein expression in prostatic tissues in Black and Caucasian men. Olapade-Olaopa EO(1), Muronda CA, ...

Androgen receptor gene CAG repeat length Varies in a Race-Specific ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9933058
by O Sartor - ‎1999 - ‎Cited by 138 - ‎Related articles
OBJECTIVES: Preliminary studies suggest that Black men have Shorter androgen receptor CAG repeat length compared with non-Hispanic whites. Because ...

race/history/evolution notes: The Androgen Receptor and ...
racehist.blogspot.com/2009/07/androgen-receptor-and-masculinization.html
Jul 4, 2009 - Racial variation exists in the Androgen Receptor gene, but there's no ... If those facts led you to predict black men have higher sperm counts ...

Androgen receptor gene polymorphisms and risk of prostate cancer: a ...
www.nature.com › Scientific Reports › Articles
Jan 16, 2017 - The androgen receptor gene is comprised of eight exons that encode ..... of the androgen receptor gene and prostate cancer risk in Black and ...

Androgen receptor protein expression in prostatic tissues in Black and ...
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pros.20014/abstract
by EO Olapade‐Olaopa - ‎2004 - ‎Cited by 27 - ‎Related articles
Feb 2, 2004 - This project is dedicated to MO Eperokun (beate memoriae). This article was presented in part at the 2001 annual meeting of the American ...

Androgen receptor protein expression in prostatic tissues in black and ...
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/pros.20014/pdfby EO Olapade‐Olaopa - ‎2004 - ‎Cited by 27 - ‎Related articles
Feb 2, 2004 - higher in BPH and CaP epithelium of Black than Caucasian men (P ... BPH; prostate cancer; Black; androgen receptor; stromal–epithelial.

Androgen Receptor Sensitivity: All Men Are Not Created Equal ...
www.musculardevelopment.com/.../2942-androgen-receptor-sensitivity-all-men-are-n...
Mar 2, 2011 - Androgen receptor sensitivity is actually pretty variable among men— ... that American Blacks were more Physically Gifted— in his opinion, as a ...

Serum Androgen Levels in Black, Hispanic, and White Men | The ...
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/.../Serum-Androgen-Levels-in-Black-Hispanic-and-Whit...
by HJ Litman - ‎2006 - ‎Cited by 107 - ‎Related articles
Black men had higher DHT levels and DHT to testosterone ratios than white and ...... the androgen receptor expression is higher in the prostatectomy samples of ...

kazenatsu · Jul 5, 2017

It could just be higher testosterone levels (more aggressive tendencies) and a smaller prefrontal cortex

(prefrontal cortex size is correlated to ability to control emotional outbursts)

Egalitarianjay02 · Jul 5, 2017

Taxonomy26 said: ↑

You're Full of it and FactLess.
Click to expand...

All you are doing is attacking strawmen and link dumping. You didn't address any of the arguments I presented based on the research of Graves that directly address your claims of testosterone levels causing racial differences in crime rates. Pretending that my statements are not based on facts does not refute my argument. I never said that Blacks were better athletes or that melanin levels were the only biological difference between populations. There are more biological differences between populations than skin color some of which are easily observable and some may be related to differences in athleticism (ex. average differences in height or abundance of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers). However just because there are some biological differences doesn't mean that everything is different or that human populations have diverged racially or that these differences include differences in innate mental characteristics.

Many of these issues are addressed by Graves at this link:

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-06.htm

Pretending that Graves is my only source is dishonest as is including a link to a racist blog among your link dump to legitimate research. As for Androgen receptors specifically epigenetic effects play a role in signaling. None of your links to actual scientific studies state that racial differences in androgen receptor signaling are a causative factor in racial differences in crime rates. This is your misinterpretation and distortion of this research, which is probably based on your reliance on racist blogs for arguments about biological differences that you think are evolutionarily determined.

Epigenetic regulation of androgen receptor signaling in prostate cancer...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3150559/
by Lina Gao and Joshi Alumkal - 2010 - Cited by 44 - Related Articles
Recent work has shed light on the importance of epigenetic events including facilitation of AR signaling by histone-modifying enzymes and also on the role that enzymes such as HDAC6 play in stabilizing AR in prostate cancer cells...
I discussed the issue of epigenetic effects on traits with Dr. Graves via email around 3 years ago during a discussion about the cause of differences in gestation rate between Blacks and Whites.

Here is what he had to say:

Joseph Graves said:

Dear Egalitarianjay02, Gestation rate is a complex trait; that means it is influenced by a large number of genes. As a complex trait, any variation we measure in it is going to be influenced by both genetic and environmental sources. There is a core equation used in quantitative genetics to calculate the variation in such traits:

Vp = Vg + Ve + Vgxe + 2Cov (G,E) + Ve

Where Vp = the variation in the measured trait (gestation time); Vg = the variation caused by genes; Vgxe is the variation caused by gene x environment interaction; and Cov (G,E) is the covariance of genes and environment; and Ve is the error associated with measuring the trait.

In chapter 5 of The Emperor’s New Clothes I explain how all these terms can work together to produce misleading claims of genetic causality. In brief, you cannot begin to make claims about the genetic causes of any physical trait unless the groups in question have been raised in the same environment. Due to epigenetic effects, it is even more necessary that the groups in question be reared in the same environment for multiple generations. Gestation time is a trait that is particularly influenced by environmental and epigenetic effects. Epigenetics means chemical changes to the DNA molecule that do not involve changing the nucleotide sequence (such as methylation). These changes are profoundly influenced by environment.

Hope this helps,

Sincerely,

Dr. Joseph L. Graves Jr.
Associate Dean for Research
Professor of Biological Sciences
Joint School of Nanosciences & Nanoengineering
Suite 2200, Rm 104
North Carolina A&T State University
UNC Greensboro
2901 E. Lee St.
Greensboro, NC 27401
Click to expand...

This same scientific reasoning on epigenetic effects on gestation rate can be applied to androgen receptor signaling. There is a study that supports this position. So you still have not presented legitimate research that validates your claims and have been refuted point by point.

Taxonomy26 · Jul 6, 2017

So in response to the charge that you got Nothing, and only use Graves...
you use Graves!
LOFL
Are YOU 'J'oe Graves or Joe jr?

The traits ARE Genetic both among African Blacks and Hybrid/80% American Blacks.

Further, this Genetic difference causes Behavior, both Aggression and Sexual.
Google II, page 1
'androgen receptors aggression'

PS: I use whole Google pages not as 'Link Dumps,' but so I am not accused of Cherry picking.
They are therefore representative and include many ncbi/nih links along with sciencedirect, nature, etc.
WAY more representative/fair than your goofy mini-opinions of Black College 'House-scientist' Graves.
Your posts are a Joke. Like Yo uncle Denial Joe is scripture.

Androgen Receptors, Sex Behaviour, and Aggression - NCBI - NIH
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › NCBI › Literature › PubMed Central (PMC)
by RL Cunningham - ‎2012 - ‎Cited by 11 - ‎Related articles
Sep 14, 2012 - Androgen receptors (AR's) are highly conserved and are present in organisms ranging from yeast to humans (1). ... Further, we will examine the role of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPA) on hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) function at the level of the AR.

Beyond aggression: Androgen-receptor blockade modulates ... - NCBI
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26545817
by J delBarco-Trillo - ‎2016 - ‎Cited by 3 - ‎Related articles
Horm Behav. 2016 Feb;78:95-106. doi: 10.1016/j.yhbeh.2015.11.001. Epub 2015 Nov 3. Beyondaggression: Androgen-receptor blockade modulates social ...

Androgen Receptors, Sex Behavior, and Aggression - FullText ...
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/337663by RL Cunningham - ‎2012 - ‎Cited by 11 - ‎Related articles
Mar 13, 2012 - Androgen Receptors in Brain. Androgen receptors (ARs) are highly conserved and are present in organisms ranging from yeast to humans [1]. ... Further, we will examine the role of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPA) on hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) function at the level of the AR.

Androgen Receptor Gene Polymorphism, Aggression, and ... - PLOS
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0136208by ML Butovskaya - ‎2015 - ‎Cited by 6 - ‎Related articles
Aug 20, 2015 - The androgen receptor (AR) gene polymorphism in humans is linked to aggression and may also be linked to reproduction. Here we report ...

Beyond aggression: Androgen-receptor blockade ... - ScienceDirect
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X15301513by LK Greene - ‎2016 - ‎Cited by 3 - ‎Related articles
Nov 3, 2015 - In male vertebrates, androgens are inextricably linked to reproduction, social dominance, and aggression, often at the cost of paternal ...

The role of androgen receptors in regulating territorial aggression in ...
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X09002153by TS Sperry - ‎2010 - ‎Cited by 37 - ‎Related articles
This paper examines the role that androgen receptors (ARs) play in modulating aggressive behavior in male song sparrows, Melospiza melodia morphna.

[PDF]Androgen Receptors, Sex Behavior, and Aggression - Semantic Scholar
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/77c0/615171721616f602b284319a23a99c35dcf7.pdfby RL Cunningham - ‎2012 - ‎Cited by 11 - ‎Related articles
Sep 14, 2012 - Sexual Behavior and Androgen Receptors. Virtually all reproductive-related behaviors, including copulation, aggression, scent marking, and ...

Biology of Aggression - Page 227 - Google Books Result
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0195168763
Randy J. Nelson - 2006 - ‎Psychology
Annales d'Endrocrinologie, 64, 95– 107. Lee, H. J., & Chang, C. (2003). Recent advances in androgen receptor action. Cellular and Molecular Life Sciences, 60, ...

Targeting the Androgen Receptor: New Hope for Aggressive Forms of ...
www.onclive.com/.../targeting-the-androgen-receptor-new-hope-for-aggressive-forms...
Sep 5, 2014 - Although hormone-targeting strategies have been a mainstay of prostate and breast cancer therapies for decades, an improved understanding ...

Aggression, Digit Ratio and Variation in Androgen Receptor and ...
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10519-010-9404-7
Variation in sensitivity of the androgen receptor, resulting from polymorphism in the AR ... Aggression2D:4D Digit ratio Humans Androgen receptor AR MAO-A.

So there you have it.
1. Blacks have higher Testosterone AND Androgen sensitivity.
2. Those GENETIC traits cause higher aggression: both Sexual and Criminal.
Thus:
3. Blacks are WAY over-represented in Violent Crime and Out of Wedlock babies.
4. Quite simple really.
5. So simple in fact, you NEVER answered/WHIFFED on the Third Point: That's Why Blacks are better athletes. Your acknowledged Racialism.
6. You LOSE #5674.
+

Egalitarianjay02 · Jul 6, 2017

So in response to the charge that you are spamming links (link dumping) and misinterpreting their findings while ignoring my arguments and making up lies to misrepresent my position you simply do the exact same thing over again.

1) You didn't address the arguments I presented by Graves on epigenetic effects on phenotypic traits which are also related to androgen receptor signaling, a claim I supported with a source.

2) None of your sources prove your claim that genetic differences between races cause differences in testosterone level or androgen sensitivity which are causative factors in differences in crime rate or sexual behavior. Literally none of those studies claimed this.

3) You are assuming that testosterone and androgen sensitivity causes differences in violent crime rates and out of wedlock births which is not supported by your sources and ridiculous because:

a) Hormone levels have never been proven to cause violence. Aggression is amplified by an increase in testosterone which fluctuates due to environmental variables (diet, stress, physical activity etc.) but simply having naturally higher testosterone levels doesn't determine a person's propensity for violence.

b) Marriage is a man-made concept and judging promiscuity based on sexual behavior is subjective. For example a man can have children by many different women and marry all of them at one time in his life but end up divorced and not play an active role in his children's lives. Technically none of the children were born "out of wedlock." Another man can have fewer children, not marry any of the mothers but be a responsible father to all of his children who were born out of wedlock. Who is more promiscuous? A man who has serious relationships with 3 different women and gets all 3 of them pregnant while having normal sexual relationships with them or a man who has sex with 20 different women involving orgies, drugs and bizarre fetishes but gets none of them pregnant? You simply can't judge sexual behavior in the ways that you are doing it.

c) Environmental differences can easily explain differences in violent crime rate or sexual behavior. You haven't addressed this or explained why this position is invalid.

4) Once again I never said that Blacks were better athletes. If that were true then Black athletes would dominate every single Olympic event which is not the case. People of African descent are over represented in some sports (ex. Basketball, Football, Boxing and Sprinting). Some representation in sports can be cultural and environmental and some genetic. I acknowledge a genetic component but that does NOT mean I believe in racialism.

You are assuming that Black over representation in these sports is related to testosterone level. Based on my observations both as a spectator and participating in some of these sports myself I believe that quick bursts of speed is the key factor here which may be related to anatomical differences or muscle fibers in certain populations that affords their athletes a physical advantage. Aggression definitely plays a factor in these sports but if high testosterone matters anywhere it is in feats of strength and Blacks do not dominate weightlifting or strongman competitions.

So once again, I do acknowledge a genetic component to athleticism and that some biological differences that affect athleticism may differ between geographic populations but to generalize Blacks or any group as superior athletes overall is a claim I never made and don't believe. This is also not problematic for my position on the applicability of the concept of race to humans. Also Graves addressed this topic directly in the link I posted and in his book The Myth of Race: Why we pretend race exists in America. You have ignored these arguments.

You're not really debating here. In a debate you make a claim, support your position with a source and extrapolate an argument from that source showing that it validates your claim. You don't spam links. You also provide feedback on the arguments of your opponent not engage in childish taunts. You don't know how to debate properly. That's part of the problem but you are also dishonest.

Taxonomy26 · Jul 6, 2017

Egalitarianjay02 said: ↑

So in response to the charge that you are spamming links (link dumping) and misinterpreting their findings while ignoring my arguments and making up lies to misrepresent my position you simply do the exact same thing over again.
Click to expand...

Lying again.
I told you why I was posting whole Google page results. To show the Broad Unanimity for my Claims, without Cherry Picking ie, one study, or even worse, your One Black College 'House Scientist' in Every post! (see my last)

Egalitarianjay02 said:

1) You didn't address the arguments I presented by Graves on epigenetic effects on phenotypic traits which are also related to androgen receptor signaling, a claim I supported with a source.
Click to expand...

Many of my links showed these Traits are Genetic, NOT epigenetic, and last to approximately 35 years old.
That is for Blacks in America and Africa/everywhere.

Egalitarianjay02 said:

2) None of your sources prove your claim that genetic differences between races cause differences in testosterone level or androgen sensitivity which are causative factors in differences in crime rate or sexual behavior. Literally none of those studies claimed this.
3) You are assuming that testosterone and androgen sensitivity causes differences in violent crime rates and out of wedlock births which is not supported by your sources and ridiculous because:
a) Hormone levels have never been proven to cause violence. Aggression is amplified by an increase in testosterone which fluctuates due to environmental variables (diet, stress, physical activity etc.) but simply having naturally higher testosterone levels doesn't determine a person's propensity for violence.
Click to expand...

My Sources show increase in aggression, and I have previously posted this/these at you many times.

ScienceDirect.com - Personality and Individual Differences - Testosterone, crime, and misbehavior among 692 male prison inmates
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/019188699400177T
Testosterone, crime, and misbehavior among 692 male prison inmates
Abstract
Testosterone, crime, and prison behavior were examined among 692 adult male prison inmates. Testosterone was measured from saliva samples, and behavior was coded from prison system records. Inmates who had committed personal crimes of sex and violence had higher testosterone levels than inmates who had committed property crimes of burglary, theft, and drugs.
Inmates with higher testosterone levels also violated more rules in prison, especially rules involving overt confrontation. The findings indicate differences between low and high testosterone individuals in the amount and pattern of their misbehavior.

Also see our previous exchange for Much more
http://politicalforum.com/index.php...t-should-we-do.470722/page-35#post-1066725964

And I invite all to see the whole string in which Ejay was Routed.
He tries this stuff on so many boards, he forgets when it hasn't worked.

Egalitarianjay02 said:

b) Marriage is a man-made concept and judging promiscuity based on sexual behavior is subjective. For example a man can have children by many different women and marry all of them at one time in his life but end up divorced and not play an active role in his children's lives. Technically none of the children were born "out of wedlock."
Click to expand...

:^)
Crime is also a "Man Made Concept".
Your apologetics on this one are beyond Funny and, as always, obtuse.
We're now into demonstrating Race and IQ difference.

EgalitarianJay" said:

c) Environmental differences can easily explain differences in violent crime rate or sexual behavior. You haven't addressed this or explained why this position is invalid.
Click to expand...

Environment can contribute but (like IQ) race differences exist beside socioeconomic. And of course, Bad behavior due TO innate Lower Racial IQ itself can be the reason For worse environment.

In any case, as I have pointed out many times, Lower socioeconomic status of Asians (poor China Towns included) still leaves them with 1/4 the Violent Crime Rate of Whites, and blacks with 5-8 Times that of whites. This for decades.
Race, not poverty is the biggest determinent in predicting crime.
ie, See my WORLD Map above.

Egalitarianjay02 said:

4) Once again I never said that Blacks were better athletes. If that were true then Black athletes would dominate every single Olympic event which is not the case. People of African descent are over represented in some sports (ex. Basketball, Football, Boxing and Sprinting). Some representation in sports can be cultural and environmental and some genetic. I acknowledge a genetic component but that does NOT mean I believe in racialism.
Click to expand...

That's a Lie, which which you acknowledge/self-impeach in your next section below.
Blacks would only dominate the sports they participate in. Blacks don't dominate in Golf or Tennis, though amazingly even in those sports, we have examples of Blacks on top despite the incredibly Low participation rate.
And your logic is weak, as could also be predicted.
There aren't enough blacks who have even tried many sports to 'dominate' them. Especially Winter Sports.
"Better Athletes" would only be shown by "Over-representation" you Admit just below!
(Not the ridiculous/Dishonest "every sport" you just tried.

Egalitarianjay02 said:

You are assuming that Black over representation in these sports is related to testosterone level. Based on my observations both as a spectator and participating in some of these sports myself I believe that quick bursts of speed is the key factor here which may be related to anatomical differences or muscle fibers in certain populations that affords their athletes a physical advantage. Aggression definitely plays a factor in these sports but if high testosterone matters anywhere it is in feats of strength and Blacks do not dominate weightlifting or strongman competitions.
Click to expand...

So here you are acknowledging Blacks have a Genetic!... advantage in Bursts of Speed. That is "Muscular". IOW, Significantly physically different.
Muscularity IS determined in part BY Testosterone. Hark!

Egalitarianjay02 said:

So once again, I do acknowledge a genetic component to athleticism and that some biological differences that affect athleticism may differ between geographic populations....
Click to expand...

"geographic populations" being a Euphemism for 'Races.
You again acknowledge/Allow that Blacks are better athletes.
(just like ie, NE Asians are smarter/have higher IQs on average, lower Testosterone, and Lower crime than the other two major groups)
Game over/Not clever enough #8796

PS: I saw you read my post at 2AM, responded at 5:15AM, and last seen at 9:38 AM. (and perhaps previous/in between)
IOW, All Night.
Get a life/job.
+

Egalitarianjay02 · Jul 6, 2017

Taxonomy26 said: ↑

Lying again.
I told you why I was posting whole Google page results. To show the Broad Unanimity for my Claims, without Cherry Picking ie, one study, or even worse, your One Black College 'House Scientist' in Every post! (see my last)
Click to expand...

You are spamming links that say nothing that supports your claim e.g. "Genetic differences between races determine differences in crime rates that are caused by testosterone level."

Graves directly addressed this claim. You can't refute him.

Many of my links showed these Traits are Genetic, NOT epigenetic, and last to approximately 35 years old.
That is for Blacks in America and Africa/everywhere.
Click to expand...

This just shows your ignorance of the relationship between epigenetics and phenotypic traits. Epigenetics involve chemical changes to the DNA molecule without changing the nucleotide sequence. A trait can be genetic and heritable and the causes of the differences in the trait between individuals and groups is due to epigenetic effects. I provided a study which shows that this is the case with androgen receptors which you ignored.

My Sources show increase in aggression, and I have previously posted this/these at you many times.

ScienceDirect.com - Personality and Individual Differences - Testosterone, crime, and misbehavior among 692 male prison inmates
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/019188699400177T
Testosterone, crime, and misbehavior among 692 male prison inmates
Abstract
Testosterone, crime, and prison behavior were examined among 692 adult male prison inmates. Testosterone was measured from saliva samples, and behavior was coded from prison system records. Inmates who had committed personal crimes of sex and violence had higher testosterone levels than inmates who had committed property crimes of burglary, theft, and drugs.
Inmates with higher testosterone levels also violated more rules in prison, especially rules involving overt confrontation. The findings indicate differences between low and high testosterone individuals in the amount and pattern of their misbehavior.

Also see our previous exchange for Much more
http://politicalforum.com/index.php...t-should-we-do.470722/page-35#post-1066725964

And I invite all to see the whole string in which Ejay was Routed.
He tries this stuff on so many boards, he forgets when it hasn't worked.
Click to expand...

This does absolutely nothing to prove your case. Obviously criminals who commit crimes related to aggression are going to have naturally higher levels of testosterone, which amplifies aggression, than criminals who commit crimes that have nothing to do with aggression. I never denied that aggressive and violent people have a tendency to have above average levels of testosterone. But it doesn't follow that because a person is naturally more aggressive than average that they are more prone to commit violent crime.

Many people channel their aggression in more positive ways by earning money doing jobs that require strenuous physical activity or playing sports. The best athletes become professionals. So why aren't professional athletes some of the most violent criminals walking the Earth? Because they have jobs where they can channel their aggression and make money to afford a luxurious lifestyle where there is no reason to commit violent crime. Sure there are mentally unstable athletes who became violent criminals however most of them are not and most violent criminals are people from low income areas, who are under a lot of stress and either overreact to problems in their life or go looking for trouble. Their environment has a strong impact on their mental state and their personal decisions determine their life outcomes.

:^)
Crime is also a "Man Made Concept".
Your apologetics on this one are beyond Funny and, as always, obtuse.
We're now into demonstrating Race and IQ difference.
Click to expand...

Yes, crime is also a man-made concept and if you were as smart as you pretend to be you would realize that this is exactly the argument that Graves made at the end of the "Misuse of Life History Theory" excerpt that I quoted. Crime is also subjective.Tell us why you feel you have a case for Blacks being more prone to sexual aggression and violence when historical atrocities ("crimes against humanity") by Whites and Asians have involved many examples of extreme violence including the rape and murder of thousands and in some cases millions of people.

Environment can contribute but (like IQ) race differences exist beside socioeconomic. And of course, Bad behavior due TO innate Lower Racial IQ itself can be the reason For worse environment.

In any case, as I have pointed out many times, Lower socioeconomic status of Asians (poor China Towns included) still leaves them with 1/4 the Violent Crime Rate of Whites, and blacks with 5-8 Times that of whites. This for decades.
Race, not poverty is the biggest determinent in predicting crime.
ie, See my WORLD Map above.
Click to expand...

Organized crime and sex trafficking in Asia is very problematic for your argument as are atrocities such as Japanese soldiers during World War II kidnapping women from the countries they invaded and making them sex slaves (e.g. "Japanese society at the time justified their army raping women who they called "Comfort Women" and in extreme cases even raping, murdering and mutilating the bodies of nearly every woman or girl in a town that they could get their hands on ex. "The Rape of Nanking").

That's a Lie, which which you acknowledge/self-impeach in your next section below.
Blacks would only dominate the sports they participate in. Blacks don't dominate in Golf or Tennis, though amazingly even in those sports, we have examples of Blacks on top despite the incredibly Low participation rate.
And your logic is weak, as could also be predicted.
There aren't enough blacks who have even tried many sports to 'dominate' them. Especially Winter Sports.
"Better Athletes" would only be shown by "Over-representation" you Admit just below!
(Not the ridiculous/Dishonest "every sport" you just tried.
Click to expand...

So you are admitting that culture/environment has a major impact on how many athletes of certain groups excel at sports. You've just proven one of my points. What about the many sports that plenty of Blacks do compete in, for instance, weightlifting? If Blacks are better athletes overall why are they not dominating that sport? Remember it is your claim that I said that Blacks were better athletes than other races. I never said that. I do acknowledge that certain physical advantages may be related to biological differences between populations that are genetically determined (ex. height, speed, flexibility, strength) and that athletes from certain populations may excel at some sports because of these biological differences. However this does not validate the existence of races nor give credibility to any of your racist claims. Graves wrote a whole book that specifically addresses race and sports in some chapters.

Also the American Anthropological Association made a website that addresses this issue. Take the race and sports quiz and tell us what you learned:

http://www.understandingrace.org/lived/sports/index.html

So here you are acknowledging Blacks have a Genetic!... advantage in Bursts of Speed. That is "Muscular". IOW, Significantly physically different.
Muscularity IS determined in part BY Testosterone. Hark!
Click to expand...

There may be evolutionary reasons for why some populations in Africa produce athletes that excel at sports that require quick bursts of speed. I never denied this and have addressed this on the board many times. I think that diet, climate and anatomical differences in the skeleton have more to do with it than testosterone and muscular development.

"geographic populations" being a Euphemism for 'Races.
You again acknowledge/Allow that Blacks are better athletes.
(just like ie, NE Asians are smarter/have higher IQs on average, lower Testosterone, and Lower crime than the other two major groups)
Game over/Not clever enough #8796
Click to expand...

Geographic populations is not a euphemism for race. You're just too simple-minded and clearly haven't done enough research on this topic to understand the arguments against human biological variation being structured in to races. You should do some actual research instead of reading racist blogs but I'll help you out with a good source.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/does-race-exist.html

There is nothing wrong with using geographic labels to designate people. Major continental terms are just fine, and sub-regional refinements such as Western European, Eastern African, Southeast Asian, and so forth carry no unintentional baggage. In contrast, terms such as "Negroid," "Caucasoid," and "Mongoloid" create more problems than they solve. Those very terms reflect a mix of narrow regional, specific ethnic, and descriptive physical components with an assumption that such separate dimensions have some kind of common tie. Biologically, such terms are worse than useless. Their continued use, then, is in social situations where people think they have some meaning.

PS: I saw you read my post at 2AM, responded at 5:15AM, and last seen at 9:38 AM. (and perhaps previous/in between)
IOW, All Night.
Get a life/job.
+
Click to expand...

I see that you are getting desperate and resorting to personal attacks by stalking my board activity. Butthurt much? Sometimes I go to bed early, wake up in the middle of the night and go on the computer for a little while. If you think I spent 3 hours responding to your post and then spent the next 4 hours on the computer you're delusional. More than likely I simply went to sleep around 11pm or 11:30PM last night, woke up around 1:30AM, checked the board to see if you'd responded to my post, surfed the internet doing other things and got around to replying to the thread between 5AM and 5:15AM. Then shortly after that I went to sleep for nearly 4 hours, woke up, ate breakfast and went on the board again shortly before going to work.

Your troll tactics are the last resort of a beaten man.

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