JULIAN ASSANGE: Sweden still unclear

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Thingamabob, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sweden has decided to grant assurances that Assange will not be extradited from Sweden to the U.S. But this means there are still some unclear matters.

    If Sweden drops the warrant on Assange's arrest then the UK will be left alone to decide whether or not it will honour the American extradition request. As it stands, Assange’s best bet is if Sweden does get its hands on him, arrests him, charges him, puts him through the courts, awards him with whatever punishment (or none) he will receive … and then release him to go where he likes.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2019/06/...ks-extradition-us-says-no-vault-7-indictment/
     
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  2. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That link also shows why he has already done time. It is not made clear in our press a) how this rape charge has nothing to do with what we call rape an b) the extent to which he did everything he could to deal with it before he left Sweden. Both of these are dealt with by the UN Rapporteur in this video

     
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  3. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good video. Most of the true facts about these rape allegations are common knowledge here in Sweden and it upsets me that the outside world has been kept in a dramatic disinformation bubble all of these years. I have tried many times to explain the true details of his predicament in a couple of discussion forums (this one included) but people prefer to believe the fake news that is being pumped out by their national media.
     
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  4. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Agreeing you are going to use a condom and then not doing so or puncturing/tearing the condom is either rape or sexual assault in a number of nations. There is actually a prominent surgeon in Assange's home town of Melbourne who has been charged with rape for doing just that.

    The extent to which Assange supporters have tried from the outset to diminish & dismiss these allegations is one of the more disgraceful aspects of this whole sad business. A reminder that there are a lot of people who talk a good game when it comes to women's rights, but will throw women under the bus in a heartbeat to protect a man they consider important.
     
  5. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think it is a shock at first for people to discover they have been tricked and they cannot believe their country would be acting in this way. I am shocked at the extent to which we have been and most certainly are now receiving false information. It strikes me as very like how we were told communist countries worked. I think people need to start looking at where information is coming from - for instance if it is just coming from what the Government says which seems to be the most common then clearly they are saying what they want us to hear which may not be the truth.

    Back in the day when we used to have more investigative journalism and when journalists actually thought their job was to bring us the truth, things would slip through. Now with Assange we are seeing us still acting like we were told Communist countries did in the Government providing the 'news' but also in the brutal punishment we were told they did but we would never do, of those who are able to break through the image we are given and show us the truth. Consortium news is looking at how since the attempt of the US to charge Assange with Espionage for reporting war crimes. other countries taking the US lead are threatening their journalists.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2019/06/...urnalists-for-publishing-classified-material/
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  6. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are aware that even with that, there was no dna on the condom given to the police. Indeed it looked like it had never been used which is why the case was closed.
     
  7. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    The only case 'closed' here was due to the statute of limitations. The remaining investigation was stopped when it seemed that Assange would remain in the Ecuadorean embassy. It has now been reopened. That investigation includes claims by 'Miss W' that Assange penetrated her while she was asleep & without a condom. That is not only rape in Sweden, but in a number of other nations.

    Sorry Alexa, wrong again.
     
  8. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are muddling things up. The 'rape' case was closed in Sweden when the condom which assange was supposed to have broken had no dna on it and looked like it had neve been used. You can hear all about that on the video I have left. Yes, well the 'asleep' bit we would need to know more about. However she admitted the sex was consensual and said she could not be bothered to say anything about a condom till she had finished.

    Would you please stop adding the personal attacks as if you are right and everyone else is being deliberately deceptive. You have given nothing to suggest you are right and your need to try to denigrate those with whom you debate putting suggestions as to what their motivation is purely going by your imagination suggests someone who has a problem just debating on the facts.
     
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  9. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    I have muddled up nothing. The case where he penetrated a sleeping woman without a condom is still ongoing. That is covered in the first line of my first post. Your need to continually denigrate the evidence of the witnesses while taking what Assange says at face value is duly noted. By definition sex with someone who is asleep is not consensual. Refusing to use a condom after promising to do so is rape in Sweden & a number of other nations.

    So, you can stop putting rape in commas.

    How about you stop being so sensitive. What I said is no worse than you saying I have 'muddled things up' and nowhere near as bad as the insults you have hurled at me in the past. Spare me the double standard. As for 'debating on the facts', I have read enough of your posts to know that you have zero moral authority on that point. If you cannot deal with being contradicted or called out on what you post then put me back on ignore.
     
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  10. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here is some more information on this. You will know if you have looked at the video that Assange went out of his way to sort this out in Sweden before leaving. He left Sweden believing everything was sorted.

    I knew also that there was something odd about the way it was then being treated. Here Craig Murray speaks about the irregularities

    read more

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/05/the-missing-step/

    some weeks ago I was fortunate enough to see a youtube where a woman had taken the time to investigate what the charges really were and where their base was. I was trying to find that again and have not but Murry who obviously has been following this closely came up again.

    Regarding the woman he apparently had sex with while 'asleep'
    https://consortiumnews.com/2019/06/06/swedish-court-injects-some-sense-into-the-assange-case/

    If as seems likely the case has no chance of finding him guilty which as I read before would in any case be unlikely to get him more than a few months in prison and very likely none at all...but assuming it holds no validity as seems likely it would be in Assange's best interest for Sweden to keep the charges and demand his extradition to face them. He can then go free. I understand this was the original thinking of those British MP's who demanded he be sent to deal with the 'rape' charges before going to the US but that this should only be done if they promised not to extradite him to the US.

    Given that Assange has already spent 7 years for something which would likely result in no prison time or at most a few months even if he were guilty there is no question that he has already spent well over 'time'
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  11. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's the way I read it too. If so, then I believe the UK will have to honour that extradition, rather than the one to the U.S. Now, if Sweden will uphold its' guarantee that Assange will not be extradited to the U.S. then he should be clear sailing. But that is what Assange wanted from the very start. The fact that Sweden refused to give him that guarantee is what has caused this whole mess in the first place.
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Difficult to tell. They could change their mind I suppose. I have heard that Sweden, like the UK frequently does these extraditions to the US. Given that the original claim that he was wanted appears not to have followed protocol, it may be that those with more say have interfered and said No. What is the public's view in Sweden? I suppose it is not impossible that the UK could demand he is sent back although people are saying that now that the US has added the espionage charges this will be seen in the UK as political and we apparently do not extradite people for political reasons - so it is looking less likely that our courts would extradite him anyway - though very definitely not impossible.
     
  13. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There was a time (not too long ago) when I never would even consider they might have a "change of mind". What was right was right.
    As I say, it wasn't like that before. You could count on Sweden to do the right thing ALWAYS. But lately, there have been clandestine CIA planes landing in Stockholm at midnight and wisking off "suspects" to Guantanamo which is in clear violation of Swedish law. Our Prime Minister, Olaf Palme would never have approved such crap but he was assassinated, presumably by the CIA. Now my government has its nose deeply embedded up Washington's butt hole.
    As far as the Julian Assange case we know it's a trumped-up accusation and "all in all" the Swedish population is on his side. Well, we know the facts of the case, after all, and there is no real charge to be made against him.
    I hope you are right.
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    "Rape" has a very different, much more narrow meaning in the US than it does in some other progressive countries. Obviously you happen to be in Australia, which is one of these countries.
    All Assange supporters in the US are saying is that Assange did not commit rape, as per the US definition. Even using the word "sexual violation" in the US implies something worse than what Assange was actually accused of doing.

    So the semantic meaning of words, not just from Swedish to English, but also between different English-speaking countries, is problematic.

    No one is excusing what Assange did, if those allegations are true, but it is not anywhere near as bad as real rape.
    Not even close.

    No one would ever prosecute this type of thing if it had occurred in the US.
    Definitely not a single Muslim country would.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  15. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    The prosecutor in Sweden also found reason to doubt whether the female witness was actually being truthful. She may have lied or exaggerated about what happened because she found out Assange was also sleeping with another woman, and also because she wanted Assange to be brought back to Sweden and forced to submit to an STD test.

    This was one of the reasons cited by the prosecutor for temporarily dropping the charges. The prosecutor had later, upon further investigation, found reason to doubt the reliability of the witness in this situation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    He had had consensual sex with her before, he was in a sexual relationship with her!

    The two women found out that Assange was sleeping with both of them, got angry at Assange, and then came forward with their allegations. That's why the prosecutor has reason to doubt the reliability of the witnesses, they may have colluded together to accuse Assange. The accusations might even be mostly true, but they likely would have never taken those accusations to police if they had not found out Assange had been two-timing them the whole time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  17. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, they made no allegation at all. What you say is all true but the ONLY thing they did was ask the authorities if they had a legal right to insist he submit to an STD test.

    Let's take first things first. This question they put to the authorities is most assuredly as you say, because of jealousy and whether or not Assange had any VD is completely irrelevant. Did the two women not test themselves? Isn't that the natural thing to do? What difference does it make if he was "ill"? But even that is neither here nor there because he did take an STD test - in the UK, I think, and I assume he would have done so without any authority being involved .... had the women merely asked him to do so. By that time Assange was already a sort of celebrity, having been "the man" of Wikileaks working right here in Sweden so I can imagine the women were both jealous and also boasting they had bed such a popular man.

    The women made no allegation against him and there are no charges made by them nor "pressed". Sweden is handling the incident as 'a crime against the state'. And why would they do that? You figure it out ... but I can tell you that Sweden's nose is up the crack of Washington's buttocks. There is plenty proof of that.
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well, I'm not sure. It's hard to tell whether this has more to do with Sweden's wacky laws, or could have anything to do with covert influence from the US.
    From what I read, there was understandable reason why the Swedish authorities might seek to have him extradited. I mean 'understandable' from the Swedish point of view, considering the odd laws they have and pervasive feminist social values, I did not say rational or logical.
    It's not impossible this could have been influenced by the US, but I'm just saying plausible reason (though crazy reason) existed for the Swedish authorities to act on their own in this situation.

    The Swedish authorities could have spared him the 7 years in that embassy though, by just providing the guarantee in the first place, like he had originally asked for. (When he was seeking refuge, trapped in the embassy out of fear, fear that once he was extradited to Sweden they would extradite to the US)

    This entire saga is complicated by many details, it's difficult to describe it with simple statements because there are so many caveats to each statement.
    And the only way to word the overreaching problems simply is to use overly broad statements that may not be completely technically and literally true. So I am finding it very difficult to find the proper words or statements to describe this all.
    In a way, Sweden is responsible for keeping him trapped in solitary confinement, and the guarantee they've finally provided now is too little, too late.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  19. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's what I am saying. Since there is no victim (no one pressing any charges or even making any accusations) the only plaitiff is the court, hence a crime against the state.

    And ponder this: When have you ever heard of an extrdiction warrant put out on a man who had consensual sex without a condom? NEVER before. There can be no doubt what-so-ever that Sweden was (is) doing Washington's bidding. I know that and Assange knows that. That's why he set up camp at the Ecuadorian Embassy.

    OK but to the point of seeking international extradition?

    Nah, the whole thing is Washington's doing. Trust me, Sweden would never have gone so far for a condomless, consensual hump in the hay.

    That's right. The Swedish court has been lying through its teeth all the time claiming they can't do this and they can't do that when in fact it appears they have done both "this" and "that". One of the videos above gets into that point.

    First, we have to see if Sweden's promise will be kept. Secondly, we will have to see if Assange will be compensated .. then we will know if it's "too little, too late".
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's a good point.

    But this might be one of those "only in Sweden" things.


    What's even more ridiculous is that Assange has now been sentenced to 1 year in the UK for jumping bail trying to avoid this extradition.
    That to me is the most suspicious part.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  21. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's the first time, even for Sweden.
    I know. Being jailed for jumping bail on a crime that never was committed, was never charged, and for extradition that was dropped. So OK, a slap on the wrist maybe? An overnight stay in a cell? A week of community service? But no.
     
  22. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The conspiracy continues

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jun/13/julian-assange-sajid-javid-signs-us-extradition-order
     
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  23. MrFirst

    MrFirst Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Poor Assange. His only hope after extradition to the USA would be a spy swap.
    I think Russia could give some US spy or spies for Assange - due to propaganda purposes.
    Once it was western democracy that resqued writers, philosophers etc from prisons in Communist countries, but now it has turned upside down.
     
  24. zer0lis

    zer0lis Active Member

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  25. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is in no way final yet. He will go to court and if his lawyer plays it right and, less likely, there is a non prejudicial court, then they could say no. The UK is not supposed to allow extradition for political 'offenses'. There is also a small possibility he could get the death sentence. There is no way we should allow extradition if that is a possibility though I think Sajid Javid has already tried that. I am guessing it could go on to appeals and so on. I do not think a Labour Party coming in would allow extradition.

    So much is known about him that it would be difficult for anyone not to have a prejudice one way or the other. We saw that in how the first judge responded to him calling him a narcissist when he had nothing in court to base that on. For that reason alone the court should throw it out.

    You also have all the rigmarole of the Sweden stuff, on off on off just seemingly to keep Assange prisoner till the US is ready to make the move - note above Sweden no longer believes he should be held in custody for them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
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