legalize all drugs - free money and freedom

Discussion in 'Drugs, Alcohol & Tobacco' started by tcb5173, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. tcb5173

    tcb5173 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What do you all think about legalizing all drugs? I'm assuming everyone's on board with the legalization of pot because all evidence shows that its much less harmful than alcohol and all the problems stem from the prohibition of it. But shouldn't we legalize everything else too? Throwing people in jail for just doing drugs, and not committing other crimes, is immoral and detrimental to our society.
     
  2. aal5205

    aal5205 Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I honestly think that this issue depends on what your specific values are. For example, if you put more value on the right to exercise free will, it would be easy to argue for the legalization of all drugs- if the person overdose on dangerous drugs it's there own fault right? However, if you value a safe environment, you probably wouldn't be too comfortable with those same dangerous drugs being readily available to young children. I think this fact is a crucial element of the illegality of drugs; Americans do not things like heroine and meth circulating on the streets. Of course if the drugs were legal, it would eliminate a lot of gang violence, but I feel as though the middle class, white collar society would be more comfortable with these drugs , for the most part, being held within the confines of gangs rather than in their families.
     
  3. aal5205

    aal5205 Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I honestly think that this issue depends on what your specific values are. For example, if you put more value on the right to exercise free will, it would be easy to argue for the legalization of all drugs- if the person overdose on dangerous drugs it's there own fault right? However, if you value a safe environment, you probably wouldn't be too comfortable with those same dangerous drugs being readily available to young children. I think this fact is a crucial element of the illegality of drugs; Americans do not things like heroine and meth circulating on the streets. Of course if the drugs were legal, it would eliminate a lot of gang violence, but I feel as though the middle class, white collar society would be more comfortable with these drugs , for the most part, being held within the confines of gangs rather than in their families.
     
  4. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2008
    Messages:
    11,481
    Likes Received:
    915
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How about "regulating" all drugs?
     
  5. tcb5173

    tcb5173 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yea, that's what I mean. Legalize and regulate. I think weed should be regulated like alcohol and the harder stuff should probably have more regulations. I wouldn't be up for letting 12 year old's getting their hands on any type of illegal drugs.
     
  6. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    22,854
    Likes Received:
    6,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Legalization is a pipe dream that probably won't happen in our lifetimes. Advocate for it, but it's not the be all and end all.

    Just defy the law. Buy, use and share drugs wherever possible. Do it for no profit.

    Why do we have to pay attention to the bully? Just walk away.
     
  7. tcb5173

    tcb5173 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well yea, but its still a real pain and an unjust one if you get caught. Plus its got so many upsides for the economy and incarceration rate, so im trying to convince people. One at a time
     
  8. tcb5173

    tcb5173 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I agree that it depends on what your values are. Although I would argue that the right to exercise free will should be and is the most highly valued belief among all americans as long as you don't infringe upon the rights of others. Doing drugs infringes on NO ONES rights. I also think that everyone believes they have the right of free will and they value it, therefore it would be a double standard to infringe upon another persons right of autonomy.
     
  9. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2012
    Messages:
    22,854
    Likes Received:
    6,096
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's certainly true, and I'm not against trying to change the politics of it, but I feel it's pointless. Democracy is an illusion - we have no real ability to enact any change.
     
  10. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    45,715
    Likes Received:
    885
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The problem with this logic is that when the drugs are prohibited and distributed through the black market, often by gangs as noted, then access is more available to young people than when the distributions system is controlled. This can be exemplified with the case of prescription drug abuse which is far more prevalent in adults than with children. Overwhelmingly in cases of teenage prescription drug abuse the teenagers obtained these drugs from their parents and the problem stems from a failure of parents to protect their own children from these drugs.

    Legal and controlled distribution is far superior to the uncontrolled distribution of dangerous drugs through the black market. Depending on "gangs" to safeguard our children is foolish.
     
  11. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am pro-drugs and a casual user but some drugs are really dangerous and not only for those using them , if someone chooses to die it is his right but using shissha and start punching random people in the street is just unacceptable , i am saying that from personal experience , shissha makes people violent and i am sure that there are other substances around with same or similar effects.
     
  12. tcb5173

    tcb5173 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Most of the harder ones dont, cokes probobly at the top of the list, but society doesnt really care about coke. All the wall street dudes do it. And bath salts, but their just crazy. Heroin, meth, those are addictive as hell but don't really make people violent. But yea, if theres significant evidence shown that some drugs cause people to be violent I would most likely be opposed to legalizing those.
     
  13. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    10,501
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The way it is now, young children help to cook the meth.
     
  14. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    10,262
    Likes Received:
    283
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Pot is a gateway drug that leads onto harder drugs, like cocaine and heroin.

    Alcohol and tobacco may be gateway drugs to a certain extent, but nowhere near the level of pot.

    Tobacco doesn't put you in an altered mental state/conciousness, and even though alcohol does do that, alcohol isn't as intoxicating as marijuana, and it certainly isn't a psycadelic drug like marijauna is.
     
  15. tcb5173

    tcb5173 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So? My whole point is people should be able to do heroin if they want to. Or smoke weed or whatever. Cause they aren't infringing on anyone's rights.
     
  16. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    45,715
    Likes Received:
    885
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm unfamiliar with "shissha" and the only reference I found close was "shisha" which is a molasses based tobacco concoction smoked in a hookah that, apparently is legal under our laws. Apparently the term is slang for something else.

    I'm much more knowledgeable about drugs like cocaine, heroin, LSD (and other hallucinogens like peyote and mushrooms) and methamphetamines none of which inherently makes a person violent.

    We do know that violent people can become violent on drugs (or alcohol) though and acts of violence against others are illegal. The act of violence is what needs to be prohibited and not the drug which is inherently benign.

    We can also note that with decriminalization and regulation "warning labels" can be mandated which are not required for blackmarket drugs that aren't regulated.
     
  17. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    45,715
    Likes Received:
    885
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Studies have long since proven this to be a myth.

    Dispite the propaganda there is no cause and effect relationship between marijuana and other illegal drugs. There is a fundamental problem though because marijuana is a black market commodity and those dealing in the black market often provide the other illegal drugs as well and could encourage a marijuana user, especially teenagers, to try harder drugs.
     
  18. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You can find a google translated page HERE , note that Greek do not translate well in English .
     
  19. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    45,715
    Likes Received:
    885
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So basically its a cheap synthetic alternative to cocaine with extremely bad side effects. This would argue for the legalization of cocaine as opposed to keeping cocaine illegal.

    I'll have to share some anacdotal information. In the 1970's one of my best friends that I lived with was a saleman for Mallinckrodt pharmaceutical that produces legal cocaine in the United States. The wholesale price of a kilo of pharmaceutical cocaine (98.5% pure) from Mallinckrodt was 0.5% of the blackmarket price of Peruvian cocaine (don't ask how I knew the cost of Peruvian cocaine).

    Given the choice between low cost and legally available high quality pharmaceutical cocaine and a dangerous synthetic replacement that would actually cost more it's logical to assume that overwhelmingly people would choose the pharmaceutical cocaine.
     
  20. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I am as much okay with the legalisation of cocaine as i am with the legalisation of any highly addictive substance that will make capitalists profit at the expense of the middle class. Everyone can cultivate datura & weed at home or find them dirt cheap and they are natural products with very little refinement , you can not say the same about cocaine .
     
  21. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    45,715
    Likes Received:
    885
    Trophy Points:
    113
    While producing cocaine is more complex than growing and harvesting the buds from a marijuana plant which requires no real processing it's not all that hard to produce cocaine and with legalization it would basically be done commercially as oppose to at home because of the potentially hazardous chemicals involved. It's not really a hard process though and I'd compare it in many ways to making really good moonshine that probably takes more skill by the individual than processing coca into cocaine.

    http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/coca2cocaine.html

    Once agian the point should be made that legalization produces a far superior product at a dramatically lower cost. For example "Biphetamine" was commonly prescribed for many years often for weight loss it was a common prescription "speed" available into the 1980's until the government cracked down on it's usage. This product was far superior and safer than the methamphetamine being produced by illegal meth labs in the US today.

    We can look at heroin which is addictive and expensive. Heroin addicts need a "fix" and because of the high costs can become involved in criminal activities such as burglary which is expensive to society and also endangers people. If heroin was legal then the cost drops to almost nothing so the addict can afford their addiction without resorting to criminal activities.

    Cocaine, mentioned here, is so inexpensive when commercially produced, that a person could literally purchase an enitre year's supply for a few hunderd dollars. Today a person can easily go through $100 in cocaine in an afternoon. The price difference is huge between the illegal product on the black market and the cost of the commercially produced product.
     
  22. mutmekep

    mutmekep New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    6,223
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I read about the processing and it is too wasteful , think for all the trees you have to plant replacing native ones ...
    The issue with Heroine is that users need increasing doses with the pass of time , also that it is mixed with some very dangerous materials .

    Again you did not answer my question how it will be justified for big producers to sell a highly addictive personality modifying drug . I understand that there is a market for it but i can not imagine anyone on coke being a responsible user .
     
  23. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    45,715
    Likes Received:
    885
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The belief that individuals need ever increasing dosages of heroin are not supported although they often use more daily because they want to stay high for a greater period of time during the day because they become addicted. The amount required to "get high" doesn't basically change.

    http://www.myaddiction.com/heroin.html

    Of interest is the fact that if heroin was legal and inexpensive that far more people would take heroin orally or smoke it which is far less addictive. They don't do that today because of the high cost and they want to get the "most cluck for the buck" but if we removed the "cost incentive" for intravenous use then fewer would do it. The same is true for cocaine. People use crack cocaine because it provides a better high for the dollar and because it's expensive people want to get as most out of it as possible. Cocaine can also be smoked or taken orally but it's not cost effective do so today because of the high cost of the illegal product.

    We also know that legalization does not increase the number of addicts of any type of addictive drug. There are numerous studies that have established this.

    As for "responsible users" I can only provide an anacdotal case. In the early 1980's Northrop was behind on production for the aft body of the F-18 and authorized "unlimited" overtime for the production workers. Aerospace workers make very good money and a ton of money when working overtime. Workers began using cocaine (as opposed to meth) to work more hours on the line and often slept in RV's in the parking lot when necessary. They were "responsible" people working hard and producing but they were rather silly. They were using an expensive illegal drug to basically stay awake and mentally alert and they spent all of the extra money the earned on the cocaine. Financially they didn't really profit much but they sure as hell enjoyed working 16 hour day a lot more and they did pump out high quality work.

    What we can point out is that drug usage doesn't imply that person becomes "irresponsible" as many work and continue to contribute in a positive manner to society and their families.
     
  24. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2008
    Messages:
    45,715
    Likes Received:
    885
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't disagree that growing any agricultural product can adversely effect the ecology which occurs with any non-native species. Of course coca is native to many places in the Americas and harvesting the leaves from a native plant doesn't necessarily create an adverse ecological impact.

    As I noted it's not probable that many Americans would grow coca and process cocaine but it can be done. They could plant coca plants in their backyard. harvest the leaves, and process it but it does require a few serious safety considerations and ecological considerations. They can't, for example, just dump the processing chemicals down the drain. Given the low cost of commerical production I don't think many Americans would choose to process their own because I don't think they can do it for less cost than buying it if its commercially available.
     
  25. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    10,262
    Likes Received:
    283
    Trophy Points:
    83
    All of that information is true, most, or at least many, hard drug users who started off with marijuana never would have progressed from marijuana onto harder drugs if marijuana was legal and sold alongside tobacco and alcohol, and not sold in the same market as harder drugs.

    Most hard drug addicts dont start off thinking "yes, i want to become addicted to X drug or Y drug!". Most of them casually try out a hard drug, thinking they won't become an addict, but then they become addicts and that's where a lot of these tragedies with drugs happen.

    Many of those pot smokers that got into hard drugs and became addicts tried out hard drugs partially because they wanted a "stronger high", but it marijuana was legal, most of those people wouldn't have tried harder drugs.

    They knew that hard drugs were on the same illegal black market as marijuana, as those pot smokers who became hard drug addicts had their interests in harder drugs partially stoked by those drugs being on the same market as their marijuana, and it being easy for them to get. Some of those marijuana smokers were offered harder drugs by a black market dealer, and they became addicts aftewards.

    If marijuana was legal, then marijuana users never would be offered hard drugs by black market dealers, and also, their interest in harder drugs which led to their eventual addiction to them, never would have been stoked, because they wouldn't be involved in the black market if pot was legal.

    How many alcoholics and tobacco smokers get into harder drugs?

    Very few of them. That's because they're not exposed to the black market when they get alcohol or tobacco products.

    HOWEVER

    Marijuana is definitley a gateway drug for other reasons, other than it being on the same black market as harder drugs, and even more so than nicotine or alcohol being "gateway drugs". Here's why.

    The gateway drug theory states that marijuana makes some users of it want to dry out harder drugs to get a stronger high from a harder drug. Now, those who believe in the gateway drug theory know that not every pot smoker gets into harder drugs. But they believe in that in some cases, marijuana usage is a causation to harder drug usage. While most of the pot-harder drugs cases are caused by marijuana being on an illegal market, not all of them are.

    Marijuana differs from alcohol and tobacco, and does in fact share some similarities to harder drugs. While marijuana is a "softer drug" in the same category as alcohol or tobacco in it's harmful effects (it's harmful effects are more similar to alcohol or tobacco than it is to harder drugs like cocaine, heroin, or other harder drugs) the short-term mind-altering (or psychoactive) effects of marijuana are more similar to harder drugs than it is to alcohol and tobacco.

    Tobacco and alcohol do cause some mental effects on the user when the user is using them.

    However, just like harder drugs, marijuana is psychedelic, causing the user to go into altered states of consciousness. Tobacco doesn't do that, and alcohol's mind altering effects are nowhere near as psychedelic and altered-state-of-conciousness as marijuana, and alcohol's mind altering effects are not as extreme as marijuana's, which is closer to harder drugs in that way.

    Harder drugs have those psychedelic consciousness-altering effects, just like marijuana. Marijuana is a gateway drug, because it has very similar psychoactive effects to harder drugs, and marijuana users might be interested in harder drugs after trying out marijuana, which has very similar effects.
     

Share This Page