Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by APACHERAT, Jul 25, 2019.
Laughed till I cried!
But was your first response to tell her to clean up her room???
No. My first response was "revulsion ".
Well, I'll be a blue-nosed gopher!
16 bad Marines would easily fit in the 1-2% range
End the cultural-marxism of judging history to today's standards, that revisionism.
I provided a link of the polling conducted after the My Lai incident trail that showed how Americans felt about My Lai incident and the trail of Lt. Calley.
Most in the military and the civilian population in America back then referred to it as an incident not a massacre as they do today.
If I were have been serving in Lt. Calley's infantry platoon back in 68 during the Tet Offensive I don't know how I would have conducted myself as a young 18 year old PFC. Would like to think I would have disobeyed my Platoon Commander's orders and not participated in killing VC women and children.
Don't pass judgement on a soldier or Marine unless you have been in his boots.
Back during the Vietnam War the Geneva Convention was barely touched on probably because it was well known that Charley didn't recognize the Geneva Convention and North Vietnam was not a signatory of the Geneva Convention.
What was driven into your brain housing group back then was the U.S. Military Code of Conduct especially Article ll of the code...
(I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.)
Being captured or surrendering was never an option for any soldier or Marine serving below the 17th parallel.
Before 1971 there was never any class held during basic or any other time on unlawful orders as there is today.
There were no such thing as political correctness or attending sensitivity classes or diversity classes as there is today. Back then the U.S. military was not in the PC social engineering business but the fighting of war business.,.
During the Vietnam War era the only gang presence in the U.S. military were the Black Panthers.
These were the black soldiers, Marines and sailors who caused most of the racial unrest back in the day in the military and committed right out mutiny and rioting. Most ended up in the stockade or bring.
Unfortunately, it's inevitable that the military will, to some extent, reflect society. The more democratic it is -- that is, the more it is a citizen-army, rather than a small corps of professionals -- the more this will be true.
In my opinion, it's actually good for the health of society that the military be as close to a citizen-army as possible. However, this means the military will get its share of social problems.
Sometimes it can solve social problems, although that is definitely not its purpose -- or used to be able to, before the PC termites began their work -- that civilian society can't, or won't. My closest childhood friend, in his late teenage years fell in with a bad crowd and ended up in front of a judge who gave him the option of five years at Huntsville State Prison or five years in the Corps. He wisely chose the latter and it was the making of him -- he got his G.E.D. and went on to university. But he was basically a decent kid -- he didn't have previous gang or equivalent ties before he became a Marine. I think the problem is when people go into the military with a strong prior loyalty to a gang, or a committment to a fanatical anti-Western religious belief. Then we're just giving valuable military training, and access to weaponry, to enemies of society.
Interestingly, the Left have a contradictory position: on the one hand, they want to turn the military into something like a Politically Correct university campus. On the other, their traditional hatred of the military means that they also try to prevent recruitment to the military by barring its access to schools. Once the Left has stopped opposing young people joining the military, and start encouraging it, we'll know we're doomed.
Anything, anything, can be justified or excused or explained away ... as witness these folks.
Thank you for your thought. I appreciated reading your perspective. For me ideals, codes, standards, integrity and honor are all a worthy pursuit, destination and a reality for those who strive to embrace theses goals and character traits. I do believe in absolute truth and right and wrong.
I served but was never in combat. I can only imagine the sheer horror and terror of living, fighting and dying in that most inhuman experience. We can say that an act is moral/immoral or criminal/justified, however to truly understand an event, it is best served to look at all the factors, the human environment, the mindset and the evolution of all of that and more as it unfolds.
How much restful sleep do you think a soldier gets in combat? Consider your life can be ended in any moment. I remember hearing a daily average of around four hours (less for some) for troops in the field in Vietnam. You are an average of nineteen years old (some younger). You are out in the field for thirty days. You retake objectives you lost platoon members at before. What about physical and mental fatigue? Losing guys to boobytraps. Not seeing the enemy. Ambushed. Seeing your friend(s) die and your teammate’s body zipped up in a body bag. Add adverse environmental conditions to this scenario. Just a few considerations in trying to understand the factors that can adversely influence our perception and behavior in horrific conditions.
Thank you. I'm in the same position as you, but in a much more complicated way, being at the time of Vietnam on the Far Left, about as far you could get. But the owl of Minerva, goddess of wisdom, flies only at dusk, it seems.
Everything you say about the experience of combat, especially sustained combat, is true. But we have to remember it applies to the men in the ranks of our enemies as well. And in the military above all, the buck stops at the top. Who is more guilty, the 19-year old from a tough neighborhood who commits a war crime, or his college-educated officer who looks the other way?
Which is why, after WWII, we hung some of the tops among the Nazis and Japanese, but didn't look too closely at the ordinary soldiers who actually pulled the triggers. As Churchill said, “In War: Resolution, In Defeat: Defiance, In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Good Will". And this goes double for a country like the US, which has tried to be more than just another country pursuing its self-interests, but also a "city on a hill" to inspire the rest of the world, even though of course we are made up of ordinary human beings, marked with Original Sin (to which I give a secular Darwinian interpretation, but it's a valid concept however you think of it.).
American soldiers have fired lots of shots, some of them discreditable. But the ones which will count, which have altered history for the better, and are continuing to alter it for the better, are like these:
By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April’s breeze unfurled,
Here once the embattled farmers stood,
And fired the shot heard round the world.
And why was it 'heard round the world'? The answer is on your one dollar bill, that Latin inscription on the Great Seal: Novus Ordo Seclorum, a "New Order of the Ages". We didn't just wage a war of independence -- we were constructing a new order of things, self-government by the people instead of by kings and priests and emperors. It's justly called "the American Revolution".
The obscene flag-burners and flag-stompers are in every sense of the word, counter-revolutionaries and enemies of the people. My Lai was a terrible crime, let's not try to excuse it. But one of the reasons it was a crime is that it gave and still gives ammunition to people who want to construct a world where My Lai's are part of everyday government policy.
The hero of My Lai was CWO Hugh Thompson who had the courage to land his UH-1 between the fleeing Vietnamese and the chasing troops of the USA.
The result was he was marginalized and his Army career effectively ended.
CWO Thompson wasn't looked as a hero in 68 or during the My Lai trial in 71 by the majority who were in the military and by the majority of the civilian population back then.
Don't judge history to todays standards, that cultural-marxism and is revisionism.
When considering all the forms of government conceived and implemented by Mankind, the United States of America stands as its best idea. It is frightening to consider what America’s adversaries and haters would do with Her. As Mr. Franklin said when asked “What have you wrought?” He replied “A Republic if you can keep it.”
That was very much my point sir. Without Hugh Thompson's courage to stop a wrong, far more innocent people would have been killed by the advancing round eyes.
And the US Army does not like courageous men willing to stand for doing the right thing.
As Hartley Shawcross put it at Nuremberg, "There comes a point when a man must refuse to answer to his leader if he is also to answer to his own conscience."
Ehren Watada 1Lt USA did answer to his own conscience and eventually prevailed.
You can save your labels for somebody who digs them. I don't. Cultural Marxism, ROFLMAO
If they were fighting commies in Vietnam or Korea or Japs during WW ll, none.
If they were fighting Germans during WW ll both the Allies and Germans liked to get some sleep at night.
Never drink Mexican beer.
Beer is made from water, and Mexico's water is Americas piss.
Go as far north as you can for good beer.
This actually happens every few years.
Maybe every 5 years or so something like this happens. Most times however they are caught when they are pulled over at the gate or by MPs as they use the base to transit illegals across the base and bypassing the checkpoint on I-5.
All this has happened before, and it will happen again. In another 5 years or so when people have forgotten and new guys come in. Also thinking they can make a fast buck and nobody will catch them.
we have a Commander-in-chief that thinks profiting off the position is a-ok, not surprising it's trickling down
This has happened under every CiC since at least the 1970's.
I have never seen anyone abuse the office for personal profit like Trump in my lifetime
Separate names with a comma.